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Quality Control Yourself


Well, I totally disagree with that last statement Paul. Spectrum was not being insulting IMO as much as expressing his frustration at what he considers lack of commitment to the process. At least that is how I see it. And, btw, do we allow trolling posts and threads to remain? Do we say, that guy is really artistic, let's encourage him? OK, so we have treated one or two members to the benefit of the doubt in tis regard. I have no argument with the idea that people at any level, may just like to produce "stuff" with PS and yeah, most of us love to use it. But I bet most of us who are serious put in a little time and effort, and follow a real learning process . . .

I don't think expressing an opinion, starting a thread to stimulate discussion, actively participating in that give and take, is any less worthy of respect than an image we realize is raw and not skillful. If you apply your logic of the worthiness of a picture, you should apply that same logic to threads whose words are the vehicle of expression. Yet you write this, the rhetoric of which is borderline inflammatory:

" to spit out comments like what you started with is nothing more than insulting."
 
I stand by my comments it is insulting of a member to say we should take more time in our creations, skill levels here vary dramatically.
Some members don't have PS some have other programs to work from, which give dramatically different quality levels to show, does this make the member a poor image content provider to the board?
No it does not, that member as given what they see as a good effort by themselves, and to have a 'newbie' drop such a statement is offensive.
 
Oh boy I love civil debates I am a strong believer of if what somebody else does doesnt effect you then leave them to it, If they want your opinion they will ask for feedback. If they want to learn more technical approaces and improve on their techniques they will post something along those lines.

I standbye what I say this is more of a learning community if people want to show off their work they are better suited at places such as deviant art.

End of the day no matter where they post the work who am I or anyone on here to judge anyone elses work unless it is asked for. I tend to find the people who I allow to judge and criticise my work are the people who are willing to pay me for my work. If they do not pay me then I dont get to pay my bills. If they are buying a service from me then they have every right to judge it.

We have all seen members post work and cringed at the techniques used all be it if they are a newbie or someone who thinks their work is truly the best it can be if they want to believe that then there is going to be nothing you can say that will change their view, however if they post and accept that it can be improved then these are the people that are going to get the best out of this site as they are willing to learn. Just let people post what they want and then think to yourself if this was a portfolio piece and you can do better then be safe in the knowledge if your competing against that person further down the line that you will get a pay day and they wont...

It happens people have a higher opinion of their work than what other people do I see it time after time on here where someone has posted some work and someone else has come along ripped it to pieces and posted an example of their efforts to show how it should be done and it turns out to be worse than the ops version.

90 % of art is concept 10 % is compiling it. SOme people have brilliant imagination to make awesome images but havent got the techniques to pull it off, I say everyone that has a creative eye sooner or later will be producing masterpieces with experience and practise. I know I have had awesome ideas but have struggled to compile the concept into an actual image or in my mind it is a masterpiece but when it is actually a visible image of some sort it just doesnt look as good as I imagined.
 
A newbie . . . also a person to be respected; opinions are opinions as you demonstrate. You may think it is insulting of him to say these things, but it certainly has stimulated discussion. And thank god, a variety of considerations and opinions expressed.

Just because someone's PSG badge says newbie doesn't mean they are newbies to this graphic world. Tom Mann might feel a bit miffed at the idea that his opinion was not welcome when he first arrived on the forum. Don't mean to put words in your mouth Tom, nor attribute feelings to you!

BTW, this is a very personal opinion, so I am not trying to contradict your opinion on the matter.

Yeah, bully for me, I do spend hours, days, sometimes more time, on my serious manipulations. I do slap out some 5 minute creations on occasion but those are usually in fun. I surprised myself the other day when I made - IMHO - a manipulation that held up in less than 2 hours! Do I think they're masterpieces because they took me so long to "perfect?" Hardly. You should see the manips I don't post even after tons of time spent making them. A true artist is never satisfied and keeps trying. That is the spirit I will encourage when I see it.

And Angel, you don't fit in the careless category at all.

Well, this is really enough out of me. I've already made my opinions clear ... several times. Anyway, don't we all know opinions are like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _? We all have one!
 
@Clare - If I was miffed at something when I first joined PSG, I sure don't remember it, so that should tell you something about how seriously I regarded the issue. LOL. Clare, because I'm obviously in my dotage, can you send me a private msg and remind me what I was miffed about. ;-)

T

PS - BTW, you could probably tell me almost anything and I'd believe it. LOL. The only bit of controversy that I remember is one time when I got bent out of shape because several of the mods submitted really murky images. Was there something else? PM me, pls. otherwise I'll be thinking about it all night.

T
 
Anyone with issues concerning myself mail me, mod or member alike.
 
ok lol this is now going off topic this isnt about who likes who we all have our bffs on here and we all have enemies well apart from me as I am a loveable guy lol. We shouldnt be focusing on who likes who blah blah blah but more on what this site is about and that is primarily photoshop and whatever related topics people may want to contribute towards.

Now that adobe guy he can really do my head in why cant he just make a program wher eyou just click 1 button and all images you can ever desire are created instantly. bit like there fake demonstration of their deblurring tool. lol guess it is late my sense of humour has gone.
 
This is the internet it has evolved a lot since the Mark days he doesnt even own the site anymore. we tend to find keep an active thread like this open keeps them away from other threads.

Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone has a right to throw a counter opinion, as long as the as it doesnt turn into pure bitterness and posts are removed that can be taken the wrong way or just insulting other members etc then there is no harm in this thread.

Like i said contained in 1 place is best. as soon as this thread closes then in no time at all another 1 will be opened. at least now every regular member here gets to know what to expect in this 1.

MOds are members too they have just as much right to share their opinions but we are needed to staff the thread fairly despite what our views are.

This doenst need censoring maybe it will escalate or maybe it will fade away but sooner or later the same topic will be brought back up and we get to start all over again.

often debated threads on here are....

should we work for free

shouldnt members giving advice produce better work themselves

should we work for free

I am better than you

should we work for free

to many freebie requests

should we work for free

and as you can get the point we run around in circles with these various topics we close them and another 1 pops up.

My advice is oif you dont want to see a thread going round in constant circles or if you are offended buy anything then learn which threads to avoid. Seriously I just want to scream sometimes at some threads but but even as a mod I am just a member here and I hate closing threads unless I really have to because it has gone to far or closing threads prematurely. Sometimes you have to just stand back and watch it all fall into place and we all tend to agree at the end and move onto should we work for free which will be next weeks subject.

Oh how I joke with you but stick around sooner or later you will see the pattern and then we are all friends again between rants.
 
I only see tons of moderators talking now, where did the members go? :)

No, seriously, I think it's time to close this thread and focus on Photoshop again. I don't know about you guys, but I have seen some serious name calling in this thread and I don't see how this is in the spirit of Photoshopgurus and how its founder Mark meant it to be.

I know Mark.... in contact with him till this day.

I will admit this thread is not in keeping with the forum's standing traditions. But, as an issue brought up and because we believe in free speech, we gather around and discuss like the mature intellectuals we're supposed to be.

This act alone has been present since the day the forum was formed.

ONWARD AND UPWARD , EVERYONE.....
 
Oh your such a buzz kill i mean lightyear at times lizzy:bustagut:
 
Save you're breath spam is now spelt with a $

$pam is not going anywhere. Hey I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm expressing it, there is more spam on here then relevant information for a teaching channel, as it is so called. A great cliché would be "SHOW ME THE $PAM"
 
This thread has done a lot.....lots of opinions as it looks like all of us are quite passionate. :thumbsup:

And if we all think and do alike this place would be BORING !!
 
@Clare - If I was miffed at something when I first joined PSG, I sure don't remember it, so that should tell you something about how seriously I regarded the issue. LOL. Clare, because I'm obviously in my dotage, can you send me a private msg and remind me what I was miffed about. ;-)

T

PS - BTW, you could probably tell me almost anything and I'd believe it. LOL. The only bit of controversy that I remember is one time when I got bent out of shape because several of the mods submitted really murky images. Was there something else? PM me, pls. otherwise I'll be thinking about it all night.

T

:bustagut: Not what I meant so I can say it here! Never remember you being miffed. Just chose you as an example of a new member who might come in with exceptional knowledge of PS, etc. (Hoogle comes to mind as well), get insulted by a member of the forum, and feela bit mistreated. Didn't mean you did Professor!

Here's is how I should have worded it, in proper English:
original text: Tom Mann might feel a bit miffed at the idea that his opinion was not welcome when he first arrived on the forum.
corrected. Tom Mann might have felt a bit miffed at the idea that his opinions were not welcome when he first arrived on the forum.
 
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This thread reminded me of a general list of etiquette and tips with regards to art critiquing that I constructed several years ago. I discuss some positive ideas on how to go about the act of critiquing the artwork of others. I also discuss how to receive critiques and how to respond when you feel you may have received an unjustified critique. These are in no particular order, and are just general guidelines, not rules.

In order to give proper credit, I did get the idea and borrow some passages from another very well composed art critique guide. The link I had to it no longer works, unfortunately.

Remember, without critiques, we artists get no feedback on our work.

Note: If this "guide" is out of place here, please let me know and I will remove the post immediately.


Giving Critiques

1. Start out with a compliment. This will allow the person whose art you are critiquing to relax and accept your help. If you can, add in some banter. A conversational (or friendly) attitude will help you to be better received. It is all too easy to post short phrases that are too fluffy or too harsh. It is better to begin your critique by accentuating any positive influences you see in the art.

2. Do not create a critique consisting entirely of what is wrong with a box. A critique is an analysis of the varying parts of what makes art. Some things will be wrong, some things will be right, but you must remember at all times that a critique is subjective, and the people you're talking to are human beings. It is not a forum for bashing people you don't like.

3. Understand that some people will choose not to accept your help or, heaven forbid, accept someone else's help. If you leave a critique and they respond with "Thank you, I will consider it", don't check back five weeks later expecting all your changes to be implemented, much less attack people for not implementing your suggestions. This doesn't mean they do not respect your opinion, or that they feel you were wrong, but people sometimes disagree on matters of art.

4. If you absolutely detest any given art form or game genre, don't critique it. Leave your biases and dislikes out of your critique, and just analyze the work for what it is. Likewise, don't critique the subject matter; critique how the artist brings out the subject matter. If you're sick of manipulations, don't critique the artist on creating a manipulation, critique them on how well they put it together. Critiquing is not a forum for challenging the validity of someone's choice of art genre. There is nothing wrong with not saying anything.

5. Do not use 'bad' qualifiers ("This sucks", "That's bad") without offering to help the artist. That's not to say you have to step on eggshells. You may, at your choice, be brutally blunt, but you should be offering tips on how to improve.

6. In counter-point, don't make fluff critiques. It's very easy to pad someone's ego with a delightful little comment (not critique), but don't throw in some analytical jargon to make it appear more sincere than it is. Honesty, while wounding at times, is the best way to help the person you're critiquing, and why critique if not to help? This doesn't mean that you shouldn't wantonly praise people if you want to. Just be honest about it.

7. If you can't find anything negative about the piece, it's perfectly alright to leave a critique that just analyzes the positive. Remember, a critique is an analysis of the elements of a piece of art, and if you find that in analyzing a piece of art you can't find anything wrong with it, don't feel bad about just leaving a critique on the good elements. Maybe the artist was feeling a bit iffy on leaving in a portion of the art, and your positive analysis of that portion persuades him to leave it alone?

8. You're not critiquing the artist, you're critiquing the art. Don't fill the critique with comments about the artist (including but not limited to age, religion, political stances, etc.) and don't compare boxes by the same artist unless it is to illustrate some technique that you felt was better exercised elsewhere.

9. Proofread your critiques. The purpose of a critique is to be helpful, and most artists will not read an illegible block of text, which does little to help them in the long run if they never read your analysis. Phrase your suggestions as, well, suggestions. "Perhaps if you..." and "Maybe you should try..." go over a lot better than "You need to" and "Go and do this." Do NOT use internet lingo such as “LOL,” “U,” or any other shortened verbiage. Spell out your words so that your comments are clear; otherwise, your comments will be considered worthless or at the least, too trivial to be read.

10. Leave jealousy at the door. This may seem like common sense, but all too often a person will tear apart a piece of art analytically merely because of some peripheral emotion, whether it be jealousy or anger.

11. Keep the fun factor alive. There's no need to give a professional and superbly analytical critique to someone that is most obviously creating art for fun. That's not to say you can't help them improve, but you may not need to go to such great lengths to assist them as you might someone who makes a living from art. If you know the artist is looking for more involved or critical feedback, then by all means, deliver just that if you wish.

12. Remember the platitude, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." To critique is to help, and no help comes from a brutal attack on someone’s work. On top of that, most people will ignore the advice of someone who appears to be attacking them, so even if there are valid suggestions within, it falls on deaf ears most the time. Leaving someone bruised and abused does little to make them want to create more art, and if they don't want to create more art, anything they may learn from you is moot.


Receiving Critiques

1. The absolutely best way to garner good and usable feedback on your work is to post your work-in-progress in a WIP thread. Many members who frequent WIP forums are looking to help other artists improve their skills. Take advantage of these forums, as you will see that many members become eager to see your art when it is finally finished. The more you use the WIP forum, the more likely you will receive very good feedback and critiques on your art in general, here and abroad the web.

2. Receiving critiques can be a harrowing experience, particularly for a new artist. Many times, an artist will never receive comments on their work, which leaves them wondering if their work is good, bad or indifferent. If you receive no comments, it is acceptable to post a response under your box asking for a critique. Don’t beg or whine, simply ask if anyone will be kind enough to critique your work.

3. Understand that some people will expect you to accept their help. It is perfectly acceptable to leave a "Thank you, I will consider it" in response to their suggestions. If the suggestion or advice is sound enough to you, by all means, follow up on it. Just know that you are not required to do so, but by working through the suggestion will at least give others the impression that you want to grow as an artist and are open to criticism. This is important, as you will lose support from the community if you constantly turn away ideas.

5. Remember, good feedback or critiques aren’t all summed up in “Great job” or “Awesome!” commentary. No, good in this regard means relevant and helpful. A member negatively critiques your work but provides helpful information on how to better position a character or suggestion on how to better implement a color scheme are examples of good critiquing. Take the time to recognize these critiques and don’t just blow them off as being “bad” for the reason that the critic may have said the art is not that great. Remember; since it is all digital art, you can only improve your work. Upward mobility is the phrase of the day!

Cro
 

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