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Quality Control Yourself


S

Spectrum

Well-Known Member
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Everybody likes different things, and we all have different skill levels, and thats just fine.

However, I think there needs to be more quality self-control to some of the pieces submitted here. Getting an image an applying the Poster Edges filter to it, slapping some text across it, and presenting it as your movie poster just doesn't cut it, nor should people be congratulated on such poor efforts.

Everybody starts somewhere, and as we learn more about PS, our skills grow. This is not about newbies starting out, its about people submitting "art" that has clearly been created in 5 minutes, because the creator does not value the viewer.

Learning Photoshop is like doing a PhD. It takes years to master it. Nobody expects you to spend that amount of time if you aren't a professional graphic designer or photographer, but please, spare us your made-in-5-minutes worse than mediocre efforts if you don't even appreciate the viewing pleasure of the people you are presenting your work to. Its an insult to them, their time, space on this forum, and to real artists who take their work seriously, and deserve space in forums such as PG.
 
I concur.....to a point. Many of us are not in the field. I was in repair and service for 25 years, and have a need for photography. Lousy work abounds everywhere. Some think their work is top notch, but we know better. Time does improve all work, I prefer not to lie, and say great job...if it is not. I try to improve on every image, sometimes its a winner, sometimes a wiener ! However this forum IS for newbies to LEARN PS. I have been shopping for years, and know very little....BUT enjoy it immensely and come here to learn.
 
Who are we to judge what some else thinks is good or bad ?.. If some one is at the stage that all they can do is put a filter on it then fair enough to them...that's the level they are at , they might think it's the best thing they have ever done, weather we/you or whoever thinks its rubbish isn't the question for me.

Agree to a certain extent about congratulating someone. say it as you see it i say.. but if that's all they can do, then is it not good to encourage and get them to progress with some positive feed back to them ?..

As MikeMc has all ready pointed out this forum is for ALL levels of users to Photoshop, Everyone should be able to post what they want for people to critique it, good or bad.

At the end of the day from only my point of view is that everyone no matter what level has the right to post their work, and if you don't like it.. then don't comment on it.
 
I can certainly understand the POV of the OP, and have, on occasion, have privately thought that some pieces were of such low quality as to make me shake my head in disbelief. However, as pointed out above, this is primarily an educational forum, so, to me, the real question is how to help such folks without discouraging them.

Although I'm not always successful at this, I try to do what I would want a schoolteacher to do if such a person was a student, maybe even a child in their class. To me, that means that one should be to encourage them, and then suggest, and possibly even demonstrate to them how their piece (or technique or workflow or lighting or whatever) could be improved. If the person is not an absolute newbie, I usually try to preface any statement or action like that with some statement like, "This might not be what you had in mind, but if it were my piece, I would do xxx".

Just my $0.02,

Tom
 
Spectrum,

As you stated and has been stated since, we are all at different levels. What someone at an entry level may think is the milestone of their current ability is not for us to judge.

The responsibility of quality control lay in the hands of the responders to the postings. Poor efforts should be met with honest and fair critiques and accurate opinions constructed in a manner as to not humiliate the poster, but to provide feedback that will help them improve.

PSG should NOT promote an environment where members are afraid to post their works.
 
There is a difference between learning (and I have already stated that, so I'm not sure why people are bringing up the issue of beginners) and sheer laziness. My post refers to the latter. Just because someone is a beginner, is no reason to coddle-critique submissions which are pure crap, and crap not because of a lack of experienced, but a CBF attitude. Pandering to some PC notion that everyone must feel good no matter how little care they give their work doesn't help anyone, least of all the lazy "artist". I have noted that people with a poor art and work ethic often try harder when they get bold truth instead of nice lies.
 
Spectrum said:
......Everybody likes different things, and we all have different skill levels, .......
Click to expand...

I agree.....


Spectrum said:
However, I think there needs to be more quality self-control to some of the pieces submitted here. Getting an image an applying the Poster Edges filter to it, slapping some text across it, and presenting it as your movie poster just doesn't cut it, nor should people be congratulated on such poor efforts.
Click to expand...

Self control should also be practised by the beholder. There's another word for it -TACT. Why disappoint or discourage them with scathing words. We are here to help and let-down remarks is not the proper way . You wouldn't tell a child - "That's ugly" or "You don't have talent to do that". Yould tell them - "That looks good" or Something's not right...." or "This is a better way to do it".... Ending with... Keep up the good work.

The same thing applies with adults. It's even better coz adults accept criticism and are more open to ideas.

Spectrum said:
Everybody starts somewhere, and as we learn more about PS, our skills grow. This is not about newbies starting out, its about people submitting "art" that has clearly been created in 5 minutes, because the creator does not value the viewer.
Click to expand...

Like you said... we have different skill levels.

Regardless how long it took them to create it, its the satisfaction one gets from doing it. It's not they don't value the viewer. To them, they're proud of what they created and feel that it should be shared for others to view and give constructive comments.


Spectrum said:
Learning Photoshop is like doing a PhD. It takes years to master it. Nobody expects you to spend that amount of time if you aren't a professional graphic designer or photographer, but please, spare us your made-in-5-minutes worse than mediocre efforts if you don't even appreciate the viewing pleasure of the people you are presenting your work to. Its an insult to them, their time, space on this forum, and to real artists who take their work seriously, and deserve space in forums such as PG.
Click to expand...

And isn't that an insult to them as well? Who are you to judge the less than artistic, common man like that?

There are Working, Practicing, Successful Professional graphic designers here who are willing to spend time and effort in preaching the Gospel of Photoshop to the less design oriented people - regardless whether it's a passing fad for them, a way to express themselves, a common housewife who wants something to do besides housework or someone with a design career in mind.

We are not the National Gallery of Fine Arts. We are a simple internet community of devoted Photoshop enthusiasts who wants to help others in improving their craft.

And like IamSam said... PSG should NOT promote an environment where members are afraid to post their works. By being harsh on them, do you honestly think they'll post another image? Is this the way to help them learn?

Give them a break and some slack - at least they show heart and interest.......

Don't worry about server space..... It's huge , I assure you. More than enough to handle everyone's uploads....
 
Spectrum said:
There is a difference between learning (and I have already stated that, so I'm not sure why people are bringing up the issue of beginners) and sheer laziness. My post refers to the latter. Just because someone is a beginner, is no reason to coddle-critique submissions which are pure crap, and crap not because of a lack of experienced, but a CBF attitude. Pandering to some PC notion that everyone must feel good no matter how little care they give their work doesn't help anyone, least of all the lazy "artist". I have noted that people with a poor art and work ethic often try harder when they get bold truth instead of nice lies.
Click to expand...

The "lazy" people may be doing things their way coz that's what they figured out on how to do it. It's up to us to steer them in the right direction. And entirely up to them which direction they'll go.

We need them to post their art. How can we help them grow if they don't?

Of course, we MUST tell them the bold truth about their work. This is where tact comes in.... a gentle way to let them know that tho their work isn't good , there's a better way to get results needed to get the image or design right.

We will never know what their sense of art is or what work ethics a member may have. But one thing's for sure... if they're lazy, they will never learn and the user will drop out of here. If they're not interested to learn, they will never improve regardless what we say or do. They too will disappear. Their copy of PS ends up in the trash or on e-bay.

Then again, there are those who may be all of what you say but regardless of the quality of their creations and what we all say, they stick around and churn out an art a minute coz they enjoy what they're doing and simply wants to share it with everyone in the internet world.

Like I said - its in the satisfaction one gets in what they do. Should they be denied that?
 
Very funny agent. I was just planning to put in my 3 cents!

Unfortunately, since this is an open forum, we don't and won't censor comments.

I compleeeetely agree about a suitable description of some of the things posted as "art." Makes me want to cry. My MO is to ignore the ones that have an obvious arrogance or narrow-mindedness, clearly from my own [skewed] POV. The other thing I will do, as some of you may have noticed, is pick apart all the things I think need addressing. I almost always add, but it's a nice concept or composition, or keep practicing, or something. OK, it might be insipid commentary, but I don't believe in discouraging people who want to learn. I ever so sadly, lol, remember some of my first projects and whatnot in PS.

But to save myself from saying something when I have nothing to say or nothing constructive to say, I often view and run! Sometimes being ignored works best for the OP's ego, believe it or not, and I leave that decision up to you.

We do have some nutcases that come from I don't know where! The kind that obviously - as stated - apply a filter and add some text. Do they really think they're making a design? are they trolling? are they just ignorant? Well, like I said, we won't censure/censor things unless they break forum rules or go beyond the pale or our sensibilities (maybe not yours, LMAO). Surely, art is in the eye of the beholder, but it's up to us to determine what we'll accept.

My recommendation? Constructive criticism or "helpful" pointed questions, like, wtf? or how much time and energy went into this? or how many layers have you got? or describe the steps you used; or what are you trying to achieve? :shocked:

Those are my first blush thoughts on this. Love these kind of discussions! Can't always or don't want to tell an OP what I think and it's great to blow off a little steam. So thank you Mr. OP.
 
Spectrum said:
There is a difference between learning (and I have already stated that, so I'm not sure why people are bringing up the issue of beginners) and sheer laziness.
Click to expand...

I am not good enough to see the difference, but I do know that others here use skills I have never seen...and technique improves over time.

I have posted works here that 3 or 4 months later I look at my own work and cringe, as it was poor...although at the time I thought it good. But that's how I grow...looking in the past.

PS and photography are quite subjective forms of creative art. I think Picasso is horrid, but I love Annie Leibowitz...Different tastes for all, That is why photography is loved by people with passion, and that passion can show up in our work...AND why we can be so passionate against what we don't like.
 
I belong to a thriving camera club We have more than 90 members in a town with a population of just 26,000 people. I have seen so many new members start with moderate skills, but in less than six months, become very accomplished photographers with the help of other more experienced club members, and feedback from competition judges. That has to be be a good analogy for a forum like this. A fantastic place for people to learn and grow. Some of the new members at our camera club have excellent ideas about what they want to achieve, but don't how to do it. This forum can give new Photoshop users the tools to realize the what they are seeing in their minds eye to their computer screens.

It also seems to me, that no mater how dire, no one is going to share work unless they are personally proud of it, so be gentle. :)
 
I think the main problem is age and lack off ps knowledge or any software for that matter. I do not discriminate age in fact I have a group of young people aged 11 to 20 that I do interactive live streaming with the other day we did an open stream where people could check the progress they all live streamed their projects and had 1 hour to make a something. 1 guy who has spent 3 years learning photoshop and illustrator at some school not sure what level it was at he says college which is a lower form of education than the American college and lower than UK university. He had a selection of shapes and images and he carefully used masks and selection tools and produced a nice composition using stock images. he took the whole hour.

My point is when it came to feed back I chose his as an example and I recreated pretty much exactly the same thing in less than 5 mins.

The difference is he spent ages making selections and cutting out shapes I just used blending modes and blend if and transform tool.

Now I know experienced users will do the same but the fact is this guy had never been taught what the layer blending modes were so where as experienced users just do it without thinking otherwise, he had spent ages doing it the long way round. Ok my edges were a bit cleaner but theoretically we produced the same thing.

in his eyes he created a masterpiece and maybe that is the case if you compare effort we both put in in my eyes I produced a quick ps doodle equivalent.

This is something we can only guess when people submit work especially more so when it is a composition using stock images, we do not really know what skill level went into producing it as we may know a different method that takes virtually no skill at all.

As for false positive feedback I tend to find people on similar skill levels as ops like the posts and say good job others are in the world where we can not give negative feedback now school teachers are taught to not do it in fact they are told it is not winning that counts it is taking part, everyone is a winner, Good job 1 day you are going to be president, I see a young van gough in you. what the teacher is really thinking well this sucks but I am not allowed to say that.

We live in delicate times we are not allowed to give real feedback in the fear of offending someone. Yes there is 1 or 2 that will this is the internet people are born to be insulting and negative on here.

But put it this way if these people are told they are producing high end work when they really are not and they start advertising themselves as top notch Graphic designers or website designers etc and a client pays them $500+ up front to put a mood/idea/concept board together they will soon learn the hard way that their work doesnt cut it.

and trust me that works for really good designers that do know what they are doing there will always be a client that has no idea on design and they will force you to work to a standard that in your eyes would not even pass planning stage but end of the day it is them that is paying you so you have to go with what they think. and 9 out of 10 times they will wait til the very end and say yeah your right I dont like that. Which will make you restart the project and basically doing the same job twice...

You will see people come on here spam how good they are and then soon realise they are not and they tend to fade away.

You will also see people come and say how the level of work from members here is poor and rarely put anything up themselves for criticism.

You will see people come and post work as newbies and as they get more technically sound there work will look worse than earlier examples as they play with new techniques.

But most of all and this is why i like this forum is because people come here wanting to learn and I like to watch people develop and progress. But I hate it when they get harsh criticism when they openly admit to be newbies I think positive critique is brilliant and helpful if done right.

Younger generations rarely have a good concept on design more is better with them and everything has to be over done and these guys are the 1s that need more design knowledge as often their skill level is high just presentation is not so good. Of course like anyone there are exceptions in fact I know a very talented 12 year old girl who is an incredible artist with pencil and paper and she is bringing her sketches to life in photoshop now and they truly are amazing I am talking Disney level animator when she graduates.

That is 1 thing I lack and that is I am not a natural artist and that is 1 thing that gives me most anger issues is that I cant draw but I have learnt how to build things up using basics shapes in illustrator/ photoshop or in fact 3d software. Give me a camera and I can take a sound picture (some are actually quite good in other peoples eyes, Give me your needs and I can build you a nicely designed website or a simple logo etc. My point is we are all stronger in a certain area and we all have our weaknesses and a lot of time people who post there show and tell work on here are a) brave like I said before this is the internet and may not be welcomed so warmly b) often trying something new. I would much prefer to see someone trying new things and encourage that even if it is weak to begin with then someone that has taken months/years perfecting 1 style of art whatever it may be and constantly show and tells their strong points.

My opinion is this is not really a show and tell site this is more a learning community and we set challenges to fit those needs something for people to try something new. If you just want to show and tell your work then use a dedicated site such as deviant art for that and use this site for more critique or how can it be improved etc.

and that is my 5 cents lost count on how many cents are already in the pot on this thread.....
 
God created heaven and earth in one day.....

The average PS artist created an image in about 5 minutes....

Hoogle created that post in less than 5 minutes...:cheesygrin:

ibclare created an image and 5 days later still working on it.... :twisted:

But they all declared.... "IT IS GOOD:cool2:"..... and they felt good about it... dunno about aunty, tho.... :bustagut:


All chiding aside.....

It took decades for some of us to get where we are. Looking back over the years, our earliest works may shock us. I sometimes felt I was lazy in doing some things. But in the end, I took the right direction. Thanks to people in the internet PS community as well as the real world design community.

PS.... iDad will tell you like it is - straight from the holster. But he will also add..."Keep it up"..... :mrgreen:
 
dv8_fx said:
It took decades for some of us to get where we are. Looking back over the years, our earliest works may shock us. I sometimes felt I was lazy in doing some things. But in the end, I took the right direction. Thanks to people in the internet PS community as well as the real world design community.
Click to expand...

I bet that is true of so many half decent Photoshoppers. I also bet it will take a lot less time nowadays to get a good grip on Photoshop with forums like this, and the wealth of excellent video tutorials from Lynda.com, Photoshop User TV, Video2brain (my favourite) tutsplus, Total Training, etc etc. and absolutely not forgetting Adobe who have some amazingly good video tutorials out there. Plus there are the likes of Julianne Kosts' blog which keeps us supplied with stuff almost as it happens. And Russell Brown is a great in a bizarre genius kind of a way.

http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/

But from an illustrative and digital art point of view, you can't beat Steve Caplin IMHO. His How to Cheat at Photoshop, and 100% Photoshop books are essential reading for the serious Photoshop artist. He also has a title called something Art & Design in Photoshop which is not far behind.
 
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