Another PSG war to come but lets get this resolved

[Hoogle]

well here goes nothing I will try and keep this short.

This is not just staff input but the community and I know whatever gets decided here (which I doubt anything will) will become irrelevant 2 weeks down the line.

SO constructive input only please.

Freebie work...
Get over it we do allow it and we will continue to allow it if it offends you then stay away from the thread, if you feel the op is making an unreasonable request then report and we will decide as staff dont go all negative in the thread it looks bad and it just generates complaints with no benefit let alone the many long off topic discussion regarding freebie work vs paid work.

I feel networking is a big part of being successful in this industry I have done numerous freebie work to keep clients sweet and with the possibility to get more future work ( you know what I mean 1 of your regular clients says can you edit this photo for me its 1 of my staff members wedding pictures and it needs x and y doing to it) But the reality is this is the internet chances are your never going to see or hear from freebie requests again.

However lately I have seen people request something then want several alterations doing it and what started out as a simple quick freebie request turns into a long drawn out job which people feel obliged to see it through to the end, this shouldnt be the case.

There are people here that dont believe in doing freebie work there is nothing to wrong with that and I support your view but please in return support the views of members who are willing to do it for free. Many new people to the trade if it be a hobby or if they want to take it further need to start somewhere and there is no better way than doing work for other people and may not have the confidence in themselves to start charging straight of the bat, they rely on positive feedback and constructive criticism, it is a lot harder to get into the clients head and do a job to order than it is to do your own thing.

So what is a reasonable request this is what we want to try and get a base idea from with the information gathered from here it is my intention and hopefully with backing of the community and other staff finally get a long over due official rules and guidelines posted for freebie requests like freelance.

Ok you cant compare the 2 if your getting paid for your time and work then expect to make alterations I dont think that has ever been questioned so here is what my personal views are.
(as far as forum is concerned not real life situations)

I will do freebie requests if it is something I may enjoy doing, I will limit myself to only 5 - 10 mins per edit, I will rarely upload alterations unless of course I missed something in the original post or misunderstood the thread due to my own errors.

I will not do logo or any form of profit making branding (exceptions are if it is a charity I support or maybe the odd gaming clan logo or maybe Dj work just because that is something I enjoy doing but that is also based on what information I can find out about who I am doing it for ( I wouldnt do it for a dj who is making $500 a night from his work, but some music producers just starting out or djs in a similar position etc)

I do not think it is unreasonable if you get an op posting a request then every version uploaded they request more alterations, That were not specified in the the original post, I know sometimes 1 thing leads to another idea etc so in this case I think it is fair that after maybe x amounts of alterations your allowed to restrict your work and ask for money if they want the job completed. I know this goes against the rules about asking for money on freebie requests but I do believe even freebies tend to go overboard on their requests. so maybe this could be an option.

we can start enforcing requests if they are not clear or descriptive in original post then the thread gets closed until it is suitable or failing to comply will result in the thread being deleted.

Ok well there is some of my views and an idea what do you see as fit and would you like proper rules set for posting freebie requests we may end up making rules saying no logo work to be posted in freebies, no professional photographers can post in freebies etc. so actually resulting in people making money being forced to spend some money. We can say I am sorry but we do not see your request fit to be in a freebie request we do offer a freelance service which you are more than welcome to post your job there.

ok they are examples dont scream at me lets finally get some rules that some of us agree on I know we wont all agree and I know some of you will say we shouldnt work for free etc. It has come from the powers above we will continue to do freebie request, if you post a comment in a freebie request regarding money or saying it should be in freelance etc then if staff do not agree then we will delete the comments.

So your views

What rules would you like to see
what do you think is a reasonable freebie request
what do you think is not suitable for freebie work
how many alterations are you prepared to do to complete a freebie request
anything else you seem suitable to post.
2 request per month limit ????

 

[DisturbedShifty]

I would suggest a new request forum. One with a freebie request sub forum and one with a paid work sub forum

I say for the freebie thread you have to have a minimum of 20 posts before you can start or reply to a thread. Maybe less, I'll leave that up to the mods to decide. This way it will help eliminate people that create an accounts and never use them again after their request is full filled.

Then have it so whoever replies to the thread has to state how many times they are willing to alter a image for free. And maybe make it so whoever replies first gets that person as a "client" so to speak.

Then for the paid forum, which I think we already have, make it so anyone can post in that thread. But also makes it abundantly clear that if you post in that thread you are required to pay for any work. That also means unlimited alterations, unless otherwise agreed upon.

I would also make it that members who reply to the thread should post their prices, and terms, and if the client accepts everything moves to PMs after that. No need to discuss financial agreements in public.

Just a thought. Expand on any ideas if you'd like.

 

[Hoogle]

A minimal post before making requests will fail it will certainly cut down on the amount of requests but it will also increase old threads being bumped with comments like nice work and chit chat comments on people boosting there post count, the alternative is people will join to get a job done find they cant post a request so go elsewhere.

we have toyed with the idea of a paid and freebie forum I am against it lets face it if you have a choice of posting in a forum for free or paying which would you choose.

I would like to say that if you posted in freelance you would get a higher quality of service but I have seen members literally spend weeks on 1 freebie request making many alterations when they come back, Also there are some talented people here that wont just do a quick 5 min job even for a freebie they will produce high quality work as if it was paid for, There are also many talented people that can do a job in 5 mins as to where to other members it will take a couple of hours. I have no doubt that whatever can be achieved in a paid forum can also be achieved in a freebie forum.

 

[DisturbedShifty]

A minimal post before making requests will fail it will certainly cut down on the amount of requests but it will also increase old threads being bumped with comments like nice work and chit chat comments on people boosting there post count, the alternative is people will join to get a job done find they cant post a request so go elsewhere.

we have toyed with the idea of a paid and freebie forum I am against it lets face it if you have a choice of posting in a forum for free or paying which would you choose.

I would like to say that if you posted in freelance you would get a higher quality of service but I have seen members literally spend weeks on 1 freebie request making many alterations when they come back, Also there are some talented people here that wont just do a quick 5 min job even for a freebie they will produce high quality work as if it was paid for, There are also many talented people that can do a job in 5 mins as to where to other members it will take a couple of hours. I have no doubt that whatever can be achieved in a paid forum can also be achieved in a freebie forum.

Right on. It was just a thought. I personally have nothing against doing free work. But that is just me. And it depends on the capacity it will be used in. If it looks like they will make money off it, I will probably charge. ;-)

At the very least I say members should post up front what they are willing to do if they accept a freebie request. Instead of just doing it and posting the results. Or maybe they can do the request, post it and then say how much they are willing to work on it after that.

I do agree. This is a tough topic to tackle. I hope it all works out.

 

[iDad]

This is ridiculous you either allow free work to be done here or you don't. It's up to the administration and moderators to delete anything that requests free stuff. Its as simple as that, PSG allows it or it doesn't. I know my opinion doesn't matter but this is a teaching channel if you want to learn how to do something people come here.
My opinion is no freebies, show how, tell how but no freebies. Is it is too controversial, not worth the hassle, to repetitive too frustrating and to belittling. Let the wars commence.

 

[Paul]

Freebies are one of the main reasons people come here, others learn from our 'gives' and descriptions on how we reached the end result, so that alone gives the site a good name in web world.
We can easily resolve this crap by stating any free work as to be posted to the boards for all to judge worthiness for them to have a go at it, if members do not want to post images at first post then they will need to go via paid route, you want 'privacy' then you pay for it - that weeds out the flame trolls from the genuine.
Moderators are around to pull the sneaks, to be honest any found being that way should get a warning/ban as rules are there for all to read on joining.

 

[PseFrank]

“What do you think is a reasonable freebie request?”

Original poster (Example)

I took hundreds of shots of my family while on holiday by the ocean, and I’m pleased with most of the shots. But in the image below the sky is just all white. I love the way my kids look in this particular pic, but the sky is spoiling the image.
I wondered if someone here could help me by brightening it up a bit, maybe adding some colour? I have tried to do it myself...but I’m just making it look worse! Thankyou so much for any help you are able to offer.

Personally I would be very happy to edit the above posters image. As far as alterations are concerned. Yes I would be happy to go back in once to correct something in the image if I was asked politely, and especially if it was an error on my part. But if several alterations were requested I’d probably think that the op was extracting fluid!


“What do you think is not suitable for freebie work?”

Original poster (Example)

Pic needs colour in sky...I can’t do it

Original poster (Example 2)

Several of my holiday pics need editing in Photoshop. Can someone here do it for me?

I would almost certainly ignore the poster in both of the above examples.


With regard to requests for edits that will be used commercially, then I think that these people should expect to pay for the service. And of course in doing so they reap the benefits of having things exactly as they wish, and that might include multiple alterations.

I should state that I am speaking from a position where although I do in part earn my living from photo editing/restoration, my main income comes from my computer repair business. My existing customers are the ones who because they know I am able to edit their images, ask me to do this. The important point here is that they all know that there will be a fee for this service, and are happy to pay that fee. I don't see it being any different on an internet forum.

 

[ibclare]

We've been over this topic so many times that my ears are ringing. I am not saying it isn't worth discussing how to manage things. But . . . as Hoogle stated in his opening post, there is no question, no if's and's or but's . . . the PSG Forum allows freeeeeeeebies.

What you as members decide to do is up to you. If you want the practice and don't mind spending an hour or two fulfilling one, go for it. If you don't want to, don't do it and don't make rude comments or post that this should be done for money! That is walking the thin line to infraction and temporary ban for anyone who makes these comments. Certainly your post will be deleted.


I think that especially new members should be encouraged to understand that just because they do a freebie request, if they are being bugged (sometimes this comes via PM; I think some OPs know when they are being obnoxious and don't want to make it public), they are not obligated to do anything else. Matter of pride or feelings of obligation, no one needs to put in more work than they feel is fair or have time for, and really should not allow themselves to be pressured to do anymore work unless they are enjoying it!

Opinion, not part of forum policy:
I think if a request goes down this road, it would be perfectly fine by me for the member to PM the OP and tell him/her that this is getting complicated; if the OP wants to wait and see if results might come from someone else, great; if not, the job can be completed for a fee. But this is IMHO and not sanctioned at this time by administration of the forum.

I don't know how admin would respond to this, and I am not saying this is a first approach, only if the OP asks for multiple edits or time-consuming work. And definitely I am very against doing any work for commercial enterprises.

I know some people think it's OK to do work for a new/struggling business. I might do this for a friend or a charity, and I did one once for someone's mother's business, lol, but I won't do this again. If someone is starting a new business, there are start-up costs to be expected. Graphic & web work is one of those. They wouldn't get 2,000 business cards for free so why give away a logo for that card?

Like Hoogle said above, there are logos and banners and the like, just wanted for a game site or a personal facebook page. Those are freebies. Why not? Sometimes it is a fun deal to play with this stuff. The recent edits a bunch of us did to a portrait was a good learning experience for many members, both in the images posted and the discussion. All requests need to be evaluated.

As Paul said, we try to keep on top of these things and delete the really really stupid ones, which I am sure you have all seen. It seems to me we haven't had quite as many of these lately; you know, the low res, cell phone, weirdly aimed, banal bathroom background, "YO!me in the mirror" edit self-portrait requests. Yowza.

Love these discussions! Even if the buzz in my head is requiring another cup of Jo . . . oh yeah, like that'll help.

 

[Steve]

This has been up for a year and a half.
GUIDELINES FOR FREE IMAGE EDITING REQUESTS


There's nothing new in this thread that hasn't been discussed ad nausem for the last 2 or 3 years.

To our members, read, re-read, and then read the announcement yet again.
That is the policy of this forum until it isn't.

We've discussed the option of a Free section years ago and thought it was a bad idea.
It advertises that we will do free edits, that's not what we want.


One More Time:

NOTE TO ALL REQUESTERS -

We will disallow, delete or lock requests that involve :-

- The same OP asking for multiple different edits or edit requests.

- Requests asking to have images of people manipulated into some kind of embarrassing situation.

- Requests asking to edit contents of document or statistic images hereby rendering them as forgeries.



NOTE TO ALL PSG MEMBERS

- If a request is posted, it is your choice if you want to do it or not.

- If you are against doing these free edits, that's fine, but negative comments about free work in the thread will be deleted.

- Flaming the OP in the thread will get your post deleted.

- Asking for money to do the edit will get your post deleted.

 

[iDad]

Excuse me Steve, but could you repeat that?:mrgreen:

 

[Spectrum]

I think freebies shouldn't be completely free. There should be a donation system. If you want something done, you donate $1 to help keep the site running. I do free work for mates and family, but not strangers on the net. You do realise when you do free work, you de-value graphic design as a whole industry?

You wouldn't expect someone to repair your fridge or car for free just because you ask. When you do it, that person goes away with the idea that graphic design is a "cheap" service since people aren't even expecting to be paid for it, and then when they go to a professional design studio, and want a logo, then see the bill of $350-$600, depending on the time it took to create, they think its too much.

Clients who are too tight to pay for quality design work aren't worth having. They don't respect you as a designer, or the years you have spent developing those skills. If you allow people to get away with paying sh!t for your work, you are what the industry calls a "design cowboy" and they are hated within professional circles as they make the job of convincing clients of the value of design increasingly harder. The problem is every person who learns a bit of PS thinks they can make a hack at the industry and get some cash out of it. Unlike a doctor or mechanic who will kill someone if they aren't properly qualified and experienced, there's no pressure to have a qualification in the design industry, or even be registered. Computer + PS = designer these days. Its sad.

All you are doing by doing completely free work is f*cking over the pro designers and helping to drive down their yearly income, de-value the industry in the eyes of the clients, and treat years of study and experience like its of no more value than toilet cleaning.

In simple terms, free work = death to fair pay for designers. Just curious, who here earns 80% or more of their income just from design?

 

[iDad]

Here we go again ..... :banghead:

 

[Paul]

Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that’s turning
Running rings around the moon

 

[Spectrum]

Here we go again ..... :banghead:

There is no "again" iDad. Its been a persistent and ever increasing problem for the industry. The only people who don't understand the damage it does are those outside the industry who use design as a "side earner", and haven't experienced the demand to lower their prices because their prices are already so demeaningly low, that they almost never get clients questioning them over it. They think its the same for pros who rely on design for their entire income, but it isn't.

 

[Paul]

The issue for 'pros' is one of saturation, many 'pros' are actually kids or retirees scabbing the odd buck here and there, nothing wrong with that.
But to claim the 'industry' is suffering for that is pretty lame, take this site just for instance:
Members here are not 'pros' they are at best hobbyists doing what they all see as the best work going (we all do it) egos are big in the shop world.
Ok some get some cash for edits etc, not going to maintain the household though is it?
Applying a watermark gives that member some guarantee of payment (little), but it's a semi pro approach to another issue in my mind.

Members will always do 'freebies' be it in image form or the written form, the site actively encourages the written approach over said images (not that the site does not allow images).
You honestly can sit there and others and say hand on heart that the actions of a few doing free work is killing the image industry?

 

[iDad]

Things change, if the industry is suffering because of unskilled workers then perhaps a change is in order for the industry. The wave has been ridden for a long time but it's getting smaller, time to find better ways to make an income. Just like every industry on this planet The days of big bucks for cartoons/Photo edits /manipulations etc,etc is shrinking, no whining is going to change that.

 

[Spectrum]

You honestly can sit there and others and say hand on heart that the actions of a few doing free work is killing the image industry?

But you are reducing the problem to this site, Paul. Its global, and side earners (people here included) should be charging the same rates as pros. They want to be guaranteed to get the job, so they charge the least, instead of getting it because they sell themselves and their services well to the client.

As you said, most people here are hobbyists, and thus don't have the experience of working with clients on a regular basis, and all the industry issues which come with it. While I haven't been qualified for a long time, I am technically, professional as I run my business as my main source of income. I have also spoken to much more experienced designers than myself (some who were designing before PS had layers), and their concerns mirror my own.

Yes, every time (here and other places) you design for nothing, you are shoving another little knife into the industry, and turning design into badly paying profession because you are helping to create that perception among the public. Its your choice if you want to be a part of building the perception of design as a valuable and worthy investment for your business, or as a cheap service to be had for less than $50, or even free.

 

[Spectrum]

Things change, if the industry is suffering because of unskilled workers then perhaps a change is in order for the industry. The wave has been ridden for a long time but it's getting smaller, time to find better ways to make an income. Just like every industry on this planet The days of big bucks for cartoons/Photo edits /manipulations etc,etc is shrinking, no whining is going to change that.

Design is bigger than just image editing. Its huge, and the problem I am speaking of is huge too. Recognising an industry problem isn't whinging, and if you were a designer by trade, you would already know this.

 

[iDad]

I don't how I added it to the other thread Paul just started, but was supposed to be here
"I started iDadGraphics because of friends and family it slowly turned into secondary income sometimes I get lucky sometimes I don't. It's a dog eat dog world on the web and graphics. If you're good enough to be pulling in hundreds of thousands, more power to ya! we can't begrudge the little guy, that's like saying I can't hire kids down the street for 100 to rake my yard, I need to hire qualified landscapers that want 500 bucks for two hours work? Yet the results are the same. The leafs are gone, but you never know who did it, if you didn't see the job being done that's my out look, "save a buck (or more)if you can"

 

[Paul]

I honestly cannot see how some kid or retiree doing a freebie or even a low paid edit will end the careers of oh so many top end designers, how many 'top enders' do we get on here competing with members over a quick edit for a few bucks?
We get the occasional member join under the guess of learning when all they are here for is to push/promote the next big image site (in their minds), then we have the lame members who join with one intention (to ridicule others) Us mods usually stomp hard on this crap but like crap some gets through some times, then we have the 'i have shop, but' brigade - again here for a free job - not here to get TV commercials done OR the next Hollywood blockbuster, just some snotty oik out to make a gain over 'friends'.
Luckily we jump on it mostly, but again i don't see any of this killing the industry at all, i see 'pros' here out to get a quick buck for some gas money maybe NOTHING MORE.

One last thing what are so called 'pros' doing on a forum anyway, how is being here or any other forum benefiting a 'pro'? - other than promoting their own sites maybe, time is money afterall, and free stuff is not an industry word used, unless it leads to paid work somewhere else, that is.