Another PSG war to come but lets get this resolved

[Paul]

it may be a bit late...

personally I think freebies are getting out of hand. end of story.

I’ve done a couple recently, and not one person at least said thank you or anything, they just left with it.

we need to develop a photoshop COMMUNITY not an image editing service! free or paid... and right now, I think the actual community is suffering because of this and other reason's I’ll discuss elsewhere.

you get all these people coming in saying "I’m no good with photoshop" ALL the BLOOMING time! well, neither was I, neither were you once upon a time, and we got somewhere and we got something out of it!

I'm personally not doing any more, because they just take their free edit and go.

at least the freelance section is policed well. but the free edits, not so much, they can turn into something that, to me, there should be payment for. simple five minute job like changing the colour of someone's hair or eyes yeah. but not a full drawing or something.

it's like drawing a stick man, and then asking us to make it look like a real person.

I say no, people should ask for help if they are no good with photoshop.

I never got super expensive tutoring to get where I am, good or not good, I taught myself and asked the right questions. I think it's about time these people did the same with a trial of photoshop, because i guarantee you, they've looked at it ONCE for about five minutes and not bothered.

rant over.

I’ve done a couple recently, and not one person at least said thank you or anything, they just left with it.
Then don't do anymore.

I think the actual community is suffering because of this and other reason's I’ll discuss elsewhere.
Please feel free to tell all, no secrets in a forum community.

at least the freelance section is policed well. but the free edits, not so much, they can turn into something that, to me, there should be payment for. simple five minute job like changing the colour of someone's hair or eyes yeah. but not a full drawing or something.
I and other mods i bet beg to differ on that one.

I never got super expensive tutoring to get where I am, good or not good, I taught myself and asked the right questions. I think it's about time these people did the same with a trial of photoshop, because i guarantee you, they've looked at it ONCE for about five minutes and not bothered.
And i say again - don't do them other members will gladly.

 

[Paul]

Okay this is my last post, something Hoogle wrote sparked me.

Buddy, it sounds like you let your clients dictate your worth, and that you let them take you, and your skills for granted on the off chance they want to pay. Thats simply crazy. Tell ANY pro designer how you conduct business, and they will look at you like you just told them you like to eat children. Do you even use project agreements? You know, those things clients sign so they know their rights and obligations, and if they refuse to pay once the work is done, you can take them to court to get the money???

The design industry IS suffering, and just because you let cheap skates pay you under the market standard, doesn't mean others are asking too much. Design isn't cheap, nor should it be. You don't operate like any serious professional I have ever met.

NO qualified pro I know does work on the off chance of getting paid. Its all written and signed by both parties. Its up to the designer to show their worth by educating the client, not underselling themselves to clients who don't appreciate how powerful good design can be in increasing profit for a business. You sound so desperate to get a client, any client, no matter how much they are taking advantage of you, you will accept the job.

PS: I'm not actually trying to be insulting here, I am just shocked, and I think you should consider putting more value on yourself. You sound like you try to go the extra mile for your clients, which is good, but it doesn't sound like they are returning the favour.

This is not a 'pro' site mate this is a help board run and maintained by photoshop enthusiasts and members of the same ilk, the freelance section is there for probably three or four at best, a couple of those don't participate on the boards in any regular way at all (no other contributions i mean) but the site allows it because the site is a learning site, others learn from others efforts.

 

[Tom Mann]

Zeealex: "we need to develop a photoshop COMMUNITY not an image editing service! free or paid..."

I couldn't agree more. This is why I hardly do any non-educational freebies or paid work from here, but will put considerable time into showing someone, either a newbie or one of the regulars, how I approach some PS or photography problem.

With respect to pay scale, I am extremely fortunate in that although I have taught design (mostly the engineering variety) for the past 10 years at a major university, the school likes my photography (and PP), and publishes much of what I give them, so I work with their various editors, have a nice, high quality outlet for my work, and don't have to be as directly concerned about the pay scale as folks doing freelance work or working in the commercial design industry.

That being said, I have a very strong sympathy for the "don't sell yourself short" argument, but also understand the pragmatic POV that anything we do here is not likely to have much impact, and the market will determine the worth of your work.

T

 

[Spectrum]

This is not a 'pro' site mate this is a help board run and maintained by photoshop enthusiasts and members of the same ilk, the freelance section is there for probably three or four at best, a couple of those don't participate on the boards in any regular way at all (no other contributions i mean) but the site allows it because the site is a learning site, others learn from others efforts.

I understand that Paul, but because its not a pro site, people shouldn't be making claims of what is and is not happening in the industry, unless they have professional experience over a significant period of time. You're either a hobbyist and your knowledge of the professional industry is limited, or you're a professional who has a finger on the pulse of it because of the environments you have worked in. Can't be both.

 

[Paul]

Having been into photoshop for oh so many years now i think i understand the in's and out's of this world and the corporate.
I ask again why do so many 'pros' end up on community forums?

 

[Zeealex]

well crud, my grammar just went out the window XD reasons*

I'd prefer to structure these other reasons at a time where i'm not in a ranty mood, hence while i'll say elsewhere for now. at least then I can think before I type. i could potentially and unintentionally say something that could potentially harm the *ahem* community.

I'm not doing any more free ones. certainly not simple ones that could be done if you just looked at photoshop properly.

by policed well, I mean there are dedicated mods (well duuh it's a section, but you get me right?) rules like, if you don't get payment, you don't release the image obviously it's harder to police a free request, and i know they are kept an eye on, but the requests, in my honest opinion, are not policed as throuroughly as the freelance section.


but its getting off the point, my other reasons and opinion of the policing of the posts are trivial, they don't matter. the bigger picture is that if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; show him how to catch a fish, and you can feed him for a lifetime.

In that situation, I'd prefer to be fed for a lifetime than a day.

 

[Paul]

But not everyone as our passion for the program, that's why we are here to help and if that's via a free edit then so be it.
Like i said don't reply or do anymore if that's your feelings.

 

[Spectrum]

Having been into photoshop for oh so many years now i think i understand the in's and out's of this world and the corporate.
I ask again why do so many 'pros' end up on community forums?

Knowing Photoshop is not knowing the industry. You don't know it until you've been immersed in it for a few years. My reasons for using forums is to share my personal art projects, but others may have different reasons.

 

[Paul]

Knowing Photoshop is not knowing the industry. You don't know it until you've been immersed in it for a few years. My reasons for using forums is to share my personal art projects, but others may have different reasons.

I understand your thought my friend, but that said the amount of 'pros' here you can count on one hand and then take away two probably.
Then share your art work my friend, i do - we all do, we all brag at how our latest effort as turned out asking for critique and then feeling a little deflated by said replies (we are all human).

Bottom line is members can do edits if they wish, no matter what the back ground no matter the skill level, post count achieved gives any member that right - like it or lump it.

I suggest if 'members' are feeling the financial pinch because of the forums approach towards said topic they address all feelings to admin only, as this is going round and around now.

 

[iDad]

Round and round she goes and it's right back to the starting line. Been going on for years. It's a race to a conclusion that is so obvious, ignore the request or you don't. You do freebies or you don't. Your rates are ridiculously high or your rates are ridiculous low. It is as straightforward as that, simple to understand so why doesn't everybody just move along, do your own thing, and let this subject die, or for those that don't understand what I just said, shut up already! (MYBAD i've always told my kids never to say shut up) sometimes you just get to the point where shut up makes all the sense in the world.OMG this is older than (well... you know):mrgreen:

 

[Hoogle]

I am not sure how to take your comment No one has dictated my prices to me I usually ask them what their budget is and I will work to that and probably over budget. Secondly only once have I done a professional freebie where it has truly been a freebie the rest usually leads to healthy bonuses, xmas hampers, trading in tickets to major Rugby games in the hospitality suite, tickets to British Grand Prix or other events at Silverstone UK, Weekend breaks etc. Trust me I may charge honest prices that may be under the industry standards but my prices are worked out on my experience, what I need to survive, what I need for profit, what my costs are. 1 of my clients doesnt pay me a great deal but he pays for my subscription to adobe creative cloud for the year up front.

I have 2 degrees about to get my 3rd the 2 I have are computer science, Networking and software development, the 1 which I will receive the diploma for in December is Graphic Design (FdA) undergraduate. So All though I am mostly self taught I do have NVQs and btecs as well in for web design and management.

I have a load of qualifications and I will continue to get them that doesnt make me a better designer it does give me a better idea of how design works but all it demonstrates is I have the ability to absorb information and relay it back to examining boards when they ask.

Not once did I say I let people dictate my prices I will work to their budget I never say this is what I charge I say what is your budget and I will work to it and advise them if it is not enough and we negotiate prices.

I do have some form of contract as well before starting any work I do a complex design brief with them so it is in writing what I am being asked to do, what I have quoted them and it is signed by both parties I do only ask for a deposit normally 25% upfront and then invoice them on job completion where once paid they get what they have paid for

I am not technically a qualified Graphic Designer (yet lol) However I charge as if I am sometimes more than what people n the trade charge standard and sometimes I charge less.

Like I said 1 client pays for my adboe suite another client which I often am sub contracted to work for in computer trade got me my parts for my pc at less than trade price and he paid for most of that in exchange for some work, Due to my old job I am able to buy cinema 4d which is another major tool I use at probably less than 25% and that is cheaper than I can get a student discount for. The only software I use with Student pricing is Microsoft Office.

I have an office that I base out of if I need an office provided for free by an ongoing client.

I do not have a design Studio or other expenses as far as doing work costs 60% i work from home I charge mileage and call out fees if I go to a client on site or I literally walk 2 mins to my temp office. My rent for my apartment is £700 a month and bills probably around £150 a month, I save money into a savings account and I have a private pension scheme which I can start collecting when I reach 50 I live a good lifestyle if I want to pack up for a month and go on a nice holiday I can in fact I am planning an 8 week trip next year doing a dream I have wanted to do since I was a kid and do a long extended trip across America.

I am 31 Years old how many 31 year olds can safely say they are in the same boat as me financially. I don't believe in hand outs all my money has been earnt except for a couple of thousand pounds I was rewarded compensation when I was young which my parents invested wisely for me.

I am not a freeloader and I hate people that expect to get things in life without having to put the work in. If I fail as a self employed designer then I have fall backs in place.

I dont think anyone on here has the right to judge me and tell me I am being dictated to or what I am doing is wrong, it is a dog eat dog world it is natures instinct to survive. I have never had anything handed to me on a plate I was not bought up with a silver spoon my child hood will disgust many people, I admit I have been lucky being Adopted at the age of 12, I am lucky my parents wanted the best for me and even though my education started late in life they pushed me as I had no interest in school, I couldnt even write my name at the age of 12. I was a waster until I was adopted I was going to go down the life of being a bum a life of crime.

Do I deserve to call myself a designer compared to other people out there, I do the same work I have happy customers, I have repeat customers and referrals, I have experienced way beyond what I should have had, I have worked hard in every job I have had and been rewarded.

I do not sit here and complain that people dont pay me enough? No, I work that little bit harder to get paid and if that means taking a 10% less profit then I normally would then so be it that is still money in my pocket. Yes I do not charge $500 for less than an hours work is that me killing the industry or taking money from people who are just greedy and want profit for nothing. My prices are fair, my work is of high enough quality for clients to be happy and for me to be happy with what I have sold.

So please don't Judge me on some details you may have misinterpreted, I could be unemployed and living of the state but I am not I am overcoming what is a hard time to find decent work with a severe illness and doing rather well for my efforts.

and I have nothing more to say on the subject my initial point still stands your only worth what someone is willing to pay for your work, and I will add to it and if people arent willing to pay it then maybe your in the wrong line of work or you need to up your game.

 

[ibclare]

One point Zee. Not everybody has any skill, talent, or desire to use Photoshop or any other photo editing program. Look at some of the freebie requests we get here. Many are totally ridiculous and by most living, breathing PS standards, a waste of time. I am for closing all threads that have a cell phone portrait taken in the mirror and have the OP asking for 6 pack abs added. I think the "put me in a picture with my favorite actor" is another one worthy of ignoring.

But I don't put all these in the same heap. People who come on and ask if someone could remove a distracting arm from a group pic, or like a recent one, ask if any members could provide a cool sci-fi backdrop for their wedding photo, or like the guy with the cute kid who asked for superhero edits and came back with another wanting the kid's scooter pumped up (for both he received lots of image edits and members had a lot of fun doing them), these are a different story. These people give us a creative challenge and are obviously not artists. They just have a concept they think is cool but no way of accomplishing it.

As iDad has said, as Paul states, as any number of us have expressed, we do freebies if we want or we ignore the requests. I personally agree that these should be policed more stringently. And Paul is one mod who will see an imbecile post and delete it because it is ridiculous and maybe insulting. We have rules in place that restrict unethical requests and these threads are deleted and the OP PMd with an explanation. If visitors would bother to read our guidelines we would have less of this garbage, but human nature . . .

We have some latitude for deleting or closing these threads. Maybe we should police better, but where is the exact line? Some of the stupid ones we get are not from malicious people, they're just really lame by most of our standards.

I haven't had any more lack of response from members I do freebies for than from those I offer actual PS advice to. In fact, I would say it's just the opposite. OPs come back and say, thanks but I think I'll go with what I had to begin with, or they don't say anything at all. That's not always the case of course and it is gratifying to help and know that it is appreciated and the advice put into effect. We've all had this experience. But I've felt plenty of gratitude with freebie requests, and will continue doing them as long as they are fun for me to do. I don't even put a time limit on it if the OP is respectful and asks politely, etc.

Back to policing. I think we can be more diligent about the stupid requests and delete more of them, but again, there is that fine line. Do we have the right to smack them down, or do we let them die a peaceful (or not so peaceful) death? I can't put words into Hoogle's mouth, but maybe this is a point he is trying to establish.

OK, before iDad spanks me for writing yet another tiresome book . . . beam me up Scotty!

 

[Spectrum]

I am not sure how to take your comment No one has dictated my prices to me I usually ask them what their budget is and I will work to that and probably over budget. Secondly only once have I done a professional freebie where it has truly been a freebie the rest usually leads to healthy bonuses, xmas hampers, trading in tickets to major Rugby games in the hospitality suite, tickets to British Grand Prix or other events at Silverstone UK, Weekend breaks etc. Trust me I may charge honest prices that may be under the industry standards but my prices are worked out on my experience, what I need to survive, what I need for profit, what my costs are. 1 of my clients doesnt pay me a great deal but he pays for my subscription to adobe creative cloud for the year up front.

I have 2 degrees about to get my 3rd the 2 I have are computer science, Networking and software development, the 1 which I will receive the diploma for in December is Graphic Design (FdA) undergraduate. So All though I am mostly self taught I do have NVQs and btecs as well in for web design and management.

I have a load of qualifications and I will continue to get them that doesnt make me a better designer it does give me a better idea of how design works but all it demonstrates is I have the ability to absorb information and relay it back to examining boards when they ask.

Not once did I say I let people dictate my prices I will work to their budget I never say this is what I charge I say what is your budget and I will work to it and advise them if it is not enough and we negotiate prices.

I do have some form of contract as well before starting any work I do a complex design brief with them so it is in writing what I am being asked to do, what I have quoted them and it is signed by both parties I do only ask for a deposit normally 25% upfront and then invoice them on job completion where once paid they get what they have paid for

I am not technically a qualified Graphic Designer (yet lol) However I charge as if I am sometimes more than what people n the trade charge standard and sometimes I charge less.

Like I said 1 client pays for my adboe suite another client which I often am sub contracted to work for in computer trade got me my parts for my pc at less than trade price and he paid for most of that in exchange for some work, Due to my old job I am able to buy cinema 4d which is another major tool I use at probably less than 25% and that is cheaper than I can get a student discount for. The only software I use with Student pricing is Microsoft Office.

I have an office that I base out of if I need an office provided for free by an ongoing client.

I do not have a design Studio or other expenses as far as doing work costs 60% i work from home I charge mileage and call out fees if I go to a client on site or I literally walk 2 mins to my temp office. My rent for my apartment is £700 a month and bills probably around £150 a month, I save money into a savings account and I have a private pension scheme which I can start collecting when I reach 50 I live a good lifestyle if I want to pack up for a month and go on a nice holiday I can in fact I am planning an 8 week trip next year doing a dream I have wanted to do since I was a kid and do a long extended trip across America.

I am 31 Years old how many 31 year olds can safely say they are in the same boat as me financially. I don't believe in hand outs all my money has been earnt except for a couple of thousand pounds I was rewarded compensation when I was young which my parents invested wisely for me.

I am not a freeloader and I hate people that expect to get things in life without having to put the work in. If I fail as a self employed designer then I have fall backs in place.

I dont think anyone on here has the right to judge me and tell me I am being dictated to or what I am doing is wrong, it is a dog eat dog world it is natures instinct to survive. I have never had anything handed to me on a plate I was not bought up with a silver spoon my child hood will disgust many people, I admit I have been lucky being Adopted at the age of 12, I am lucky my parents wanted the best for me and even though my education started late in life they pushed me as I had no interest in school, I couldnt even write my name at the age of 12. I was a waster until I was adopted I was going to go down the life of being a bum a life of crime.

Do I deserve to call myself a designer compared to other people out there, I do the same work I have happy customers, I have repeat customers and referrals, I have experienced way beyond what I should have had, I have worked hard in every job I have had and been rewarded.

I do not sit here and complain that people dont pay me enough? No, I work that little bit harder to get paid and if that means taking a 10% less profit then I normally would then so be it that is still money in my pocket. Yes I do not charge $500 for less than an hours work is that me killing the industry or taking money from people who are just greedy and want profit for nothing. My prices are fair, my work is of high enough quality for clients to be happy and for me to be happy with what I have sold.

So please don't Judge me on some details you may have misinterpreted, I could be unemployed and living of the state but I am not I am overcoming what is a hard time to find decent work with a severe illness and doing rather well for my efforts.

and I have nothing more to say on the subject my initial point still stands your only worth what someone is willing to pay for your work, and I will add to it and if people arent willing to pay it then maybe your in the wrong line of work or you need to up your game.

Okay Hoogle, a few lines about your work practice would have cleared it up. No need to write me your memoirs

As long as you're making it clear to clients on signed paper what is expected of them, and what they can expect of you, and you tell them what the price is, not the other way around, then I see no problem with your work system. Working to a budget is fine, as long as they aren't expecting a brilliant website for $500 or something, then all good.

You did make it sound like clients ask for work to be done, and you do it, and if they decide not to pay you, your attitude is "thats how it is!" and its not a worry. If thats not the case, then I'm glad for you.

I also never said that my clients don't pay me enough. I was speaking in broad industry terms about clients attitudes. If people don't like my prices, then tough luck. I work hard and do a lot of research about a client's business field and competition before I even fire up Illustrator. If they want a $30 knockoff logo from India, then best of luck to them when they get sued for copyright violation. I often find business owners who are tight arses and won't pay for good design go out of business pretty quickly.

When I was first starting out, I did bartering work, so I would design for start up businesses in exchange for their products or services. I found the people who didn't want to pay any money at all, and purely trade in services, are now out of business. Most of the ones who dug deep and invested in a great image have the same or more successful businesses today.

Essentially clients who are too ignorant to see design as valuable are usually ignorant in other areas too. This is why they fail.

I also know something about bad childhoods. Alcoholic father. I'll leave it there.

 

[dv8_fx]

errrrr......

OK, guys. Back to our regular program......



Hoogle asked your views ......

- What rules would you like to see?

- What do you think is a reasonable freebie request?

- What do you think is not suitable for freebie work?

- How many alterations are you prepared to do to complete a freebie request anything else you seem suitable to post?

- 2 request per month limit ????


Whatever we find as viable and suitable suggestions will be incorporated to the guidelines with the hope of improving the way PSGURUS will handle the freebie/request issue......

 

[iDad]

Excuse me kind sir dv8_fx,
but what is our regular program?I thought moaning and groaning over freebies/edits was a regular program here?:mrgreen:

 

[dv8_fx]

You really are a tease......

Out with it... spill the beans.... Share your thoughts on the issue.....

 

[ibclare]

OK y'all. This thread has worked its "majik." Time to close it up. Any mod disagrees with me, my feelings won't be hurt if you reopen it. Hoogle, I support you entirely; I admire you. You are an amazing technician, tutor (you have helped me in the past with advice, support, tutorials), idea person, your freebies are usually more than the OP asked for, and I think your life story is extremely relevant to your position in this matter.

Thank you for starting this thread. As you remarked, it took its own course and went way off topic. I advise members who are interested in the history of this discussion of PSG to do a search and read up. As iDad suggests, its a ferris wheel of round and round and round. There may be a few changes in the way we mods handle requests. It will be discussed among staff. It will be subtle I'm sure and you may not even notice, especially if threads/requests are deleted. In any event, we take your comments seriously, but the subject brought up here (other than those responding to Hoogle's first question) are retreads. We ask you to refrain from commenting in these request threads.

Everybody who hasn't already, please read this thread. It is our standing policy and it will not change!


My opinion only: let's start a new thread if we want to get this back on topic.