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Another PSG war to come but lets get this resolved


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i done freebies mainly too learn in the past and i may still do a quick one here and there if i like the idea , i have no problem with freebies being done because a lot of the time they are done by us learners so you pay for what you get i guess lol
i dont see why there is a problem with this - obviously this forum allows freebies so no worries ,its just so easy not too open the post "CAN SOMEONE DO THIS PLEASE " although i always find myself opening too see the job and too see what others have done , if its something i havent done i can learn
 
Paul said:
I honestly cannot see how some kid or retiree doing a freebie or even a low paid edit will end the careers of oh so many top end designers, how many 'top enders' do we get on here competing with members over a quick edit for a few bucks?
We get the occasional member join under the guess of learning when all they are here for is to push/promote the next big image site (in their minds), then we have the lame members who join with one intention (to ridicule others) Us mods usually stomp hard on this crap but like crap some gets through some times, then we have the 'i have shop, but' brigade - again here for a free job - not here to get TV commercials done OR the next Hollywood blockbuster, just some snotty oik out to make a gain over 'friends'.
Luckily we jump on it mostly, but again i don't see any of this killing the industry at all, i see 'pros' here out to get a quick buck for some gas money maybe NOTHING MORE.

One last thing what are so called 'pros' doing on a forum anyway, how is being here or any other forum benefiting a 'pro'? - other than promoting their own sites maybe, time is money afterall, and free stuff is not an industry word used, unless it leads to paid work somewhere else, that is.
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The kids and retirees aren't competing with the pros Paul, but they are damaging public expectation of what design is worth. Let me explain how its currently working. If it were just kids and retired people doing simple jobs for a few dollars, it wouldn't be an issue, because the volume of people in that group is quite small. Its the third world "designers" who are uneducated, underskilled who mostly offer crappy service at basement prices, but the amateurs in the west are following that behavior.

A standard needs to be maintained. If the skilled amateurs charge the same as the pros, it supports the industry, and creates a perception of design as a valued skill, which benefits amateurs and pros alike. Amateurs get paid what they should, and pros won't have to spend as much time educating their new clients on the difference (normally client competition research and file retention) between a $500 logo from Australia, and a $20 from Pakistan as they do creating the actual design.

Its just good for everyone if people don't think of design as a cheap sh!t skill that anyone can do. This wasn't an industry issue before the public got it in their heads that "everyone with PS is a designer".
 
nothing will change so why worry about it
id change the world if i could , but i cant so i stop worrying about it
 
egosbar said:
nothing will change so why worry about it
id change the world if i could , but i cant so i stop worrying about it
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You've been using PS for less than a year, much less know how the design industry works and has changed over the past decade. Nothing will change if people keep giving away their skills like they are worthless. You don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, I'm done. If you want to be treated with the same respect and and given equal pay as someone who cleans gutters for a living (no disrespect to people who do this, just giving an example), then go ahead and keep doing things the way you have been.
 
dam chill out mate , i didnt say i know anything about the design industry or how it has changed , how long someone has been doing ps has no bearing on an opinion , opinions are what they are
all i meant was you can rant all you want people will continue too give away freebies and that is all there is too it , the www is just too big and if they dont get what they want here they can just keep trolling until they do , i was happy too get 15 bucks for a small bit of work regardless if it was good or not the client paid it by his choice , i dont rely on ps too make a living it is fun for me as is this forum , id rather not get into an argument about an opinion

very lucky most of us live in a democratic world where we can say and do what we please within reason
maybe i might go find a freebie too do lol , sorry but couldnt help being a little sarcastic haha its in my nature
 
I am not 'craving' respect (never have been) i don't do freelance i do freebies, as i am a kind guy:mrgreen:
Some here do both, how do you feel about those members?
Members here do free by choice, and when post count/time served applies they can have a go in the freelance section if they so wish:thumbsup:
 
Round and round we'd go, where the buck stops nobodies knows. Change is tough on those set in their ways. The global reach for graphics has damaged the industry, I'm sure you're right(spectrum) but short of killing the www or creating a global currency, it's a victim of (someone used this word) saturation. How do you ring out a towel while under water?
 
exactly , its not the first industry to be swallowed up , its been happening since time began , i have sympathy if this is your main income but it is what it is and as i said nothing will change , so i do think i know what im talking about
 
Multi skilled is the answer, i can drive a big ass truck i can draw on a wacom:mrgreen: i can even determine the quickest and most affordable way to get something done without causing too much manufacturing operator upset, big whip and a wicked smile does it:bustagut:
 
as they say in Boston....WICKED PISSA!
 
i wonder if spectrum has ever fixed a tap washer doing a skilled plumber out of money or wired a powerpoint doing a skilled electrician out of money, the list can go on and on on jobs you can do that a skilled person would charge and arm and a leg too do , if you can save money doing anything then do it
 
egosbar said:
dam chill out mate , i didnt say i know anything about the design industry or how it has changed , how long someone has been doing ps has no bearing on an opinion
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But it does have a bearing on how accurate that opinion is. You lack experience, and thus you lack knowledge and accuracy in this area.

As for changing a washer on a tap, that is doing something for yourself, not having someone who claims to be qualified undercut someone who actually is, and deliver a poorer quality of service without the cusomer's knowledge, so in the future, the customer expects higher quality from other professionals at the price of the poorer quality guy because they don't know any better.

Your analogy doesn't make sense. They aren't editing for themselves, they are getting free workers to do it for them - workers who they think are designers. You all keep bringing this back to competition, and I keep telling you its not about that, its about the public perception of the value of design, which has steadily declined over the past decade in the eyes of clients.

Paul:

Mixing the two, again, devalues design in the eyes of current and future clients for us all. You either do free work, or you value your skills enough to charge (and that means others will too). Ever heard the saying others take you as you take yourself? In design, its a ripple effect. Clients take you, and other designers, as you take yourself.

Bottom line is, take care of your industry, or you might not have one in the future.
 
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Egos' analogy is apt actually, taking 'money' from another pretending or otherwise is taking money, iDAD said similar earlier about grass cutting same thing.
We are going round and around now, let's just beg to differ and while i am on - go check freelance and see who replies to what and what actual other input they give to this site and the industry in general, and they are the freelancers?
 
ill rephrase then , have you ever had someone do something for you even though they are not a tradesperson , im sure you have

i am not denying that the industry has suffered through less experienced psers giving away free work , i never said it hasnt - i simply said you wont change that

i really dont think you need 10 years experience in this field to know that people will continue too do free jobs , as i said its as simple as that , i wonder in ten years if my view will change i think not because in ten years there will be more people willing too do free jobs

anyway i feel for you but you called me out for expressing a very plain and honest opinion and i quote you "you dont know what your talking about" but in fact i do
you will not change people doing freebies its as simple as that
 
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end of my posts on this subject and ill never post again on this subject , i can see its been done a thousand times
 
Your work is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

AMerican Idol is full of people being told they are good by family and friends but reality is they suck. I am not saying this is the case of many designers here, but some people loose all focus of reality and place their work at a higher level than it really is, I do not believe in this 3rd world designers excuse, they have every right to value their work on what is a realistic cost for them to survive just as much as us Westerners do. $500 to us is a good payday for a few hours work to some People that is a small fortune. At least they are not driven by greed to line their pockets as deeply as us.

Globalization has every industry produce results for cheaper this is why most manufacturing is done in the likes of China because it is cheaper, do us as purchasers of the end product really see the benefit of the cheaper manufacturing costs, probably not because profit comes before we see it.

I am no way anywhere near the top of my field I wouldnt even consider myself professional but technically a professional is someone who generates most of their income from a specific trade. That is not saying they are any good at it we have all been ripped off paid for something and not had what was promised.

I started of my business as a side business on top of good steady income jobs so I could afford to do it cheaper it wasnt my main bread and butter, I did free work for a printing shop and a computer repair shop whilst my regular job help me paid for higher part time education in the field I wanted to go into and the odd few $$$ here and there for doing design as we are calling it just helped.

This is where I get most of my clients from now from referrals from these 2 shops.

I went from 1 large comany that was killing me with work and long days to another 1 that is a huge media company I thought would be a good dream job in middle management oh boy was I wrong. I soon learnt it just meant picking up stuff that rolled down hill and working 20 hour days to play catchup from other peoples cock ups. Then came a Golden Opportunity my dream job working for 1 of the largest brands and company on the planet, I did Training In London, Paris and California and then I became sick and all though the job was still there I just couldnt take the risk of bankrupting myself to get the insurance and healthcare I needed to move to America, as I knew I would still be in and out of hospital for the rest of my life.

My point is being a self employed person was not my choice maybe 1 day it could have been but it is the only real way I can earn an income now because of medical conditions no real full time job will take me on I am a risk I could collapse or drop dead at any time.

I know I am not the best designer out there I know there are far more talented people, I have an understanding and I can produce good solid work to order. I charge reasonable fees and I make a living from it, but then I am prepared to do whatever it is that can get me paid. I would love to just focus on Graphic Design but the reality is I am not good enough to make that my sole income, yes I can mimic other peoples work but that does not give me the right to sell myslef as a graphic designer. We have all produced work and stood back and said that is high quality but could I do that on a daily basis I know I couldnt.

I will do freebies for clients that pay me monthly, sometimes I get paid for chit chat because 1 of my clients has a budget and if they dont use it they loose it.

So they call me for chit chat and then have me invoice them for call out or phone support, sounds crazy but they do it. ANd yes I have had clients say My friend is starting a business could you whip up a card and website for them etc with no cost mentioned and yes I do it it and often that brings me a nice paycheck anyway because if people like your work they will pay for it.

Would I whip up a design and site for a stranger on the internet that is not related to any clients that pay me, probably not unless there was something special about the request. And I have only ever done 1 freebie away from this site that truly was a freebie the rest lead to even a small payment or new regular work.

The design world is not suffering it is people making it suffer by over pricing their work unwilling to compromise. If you cant get clients then rethink your approach I know I have been lucky and I probably dont deserve to be making the income I do and have the job opportunities that I have had, Just been at the right place at the right time. But I appreciate what I do get and I go into every month unsure of what I am going to get paid.

If you cant get clients then maybe look to getting paid doing other things such as making templates and putting them on template monster or graphic river yes they take a huge cut for your work but you do get regular income and you soon learn if people like your work or which sells better.

After all we live in a have a go yourself world and people will buy templates or try and do something themselves before they hand over their hard earned cash to 1 of us to do it for them.

This thread was not designed to be free vs paid it was designed more what are you willing to do for free before you would start charging.

Free request start out as innocent quick 5 min jobs no problem but then alterations etc turns out your doing proper freelance work under the misconception of a quick 5 min job.
 
We have had this discussion probably 4 times since I came to the forum 2 and a half years ago (ad nauseum). IMO, both sides have valid points. But . . . I fail to see the harm done by a freelance logo for $50 - 100.00 for a new start business or even a charity. I have done a couple fundraiser logos and been paid decently, more than the PSG recommended $50 due to changes requested. I did one business freebie, but I doubt I'll do that again.

I am no pro designer. I have always done work for locals, small businesses, friends, etc. I have a style which is not "corporate," but quirky and even child-like. It rarely gets me a job even on the forum, lol. I don't see the harm in it and I think it has a small impact on the professional firms and freelancers. I will not argue that it has no impact. Not only that, but artists doing this kind of work represent a fraction of the options for getting a cheap logo, internet templates being one of those options.

I agree with Hoogle, with Paul, and with the applicable points made by egosbar. You don't have to be a participant to understand something of the industry. Which is not to say you can understand all the aspects of conducting business as Spectrum (and others) have argued.

In another of my past professions, I saw the decline of my profits and the prices I could charge dramatically affected by the advent of corporations that saw the opportunity for quick profits. It hurt. That and the economic downturn drove me out of that industry.

For years I have seen changes in the money making potential throughout the industrial world. Machines, computers, etc., have eaten many jobs previously done manually (my least favorite: business telephone trees). Corporations moving businesses to countries with cheaper labor, both in manufacturing and service, have had a great impact on employment and/or wages. The technological world has given a lot of jobs back thankfully, not to mention jobs for government unemployment workers (in the US at least) and retraining professionals have increased, lol.

In any industry, does the work of an apprentice receive the same payment as that of a seasoned professional? I doubt it. No way will someone pay me $400 and up because I demand it, if my portfolio does not support my skill, ability, and experience. Should I therefore not offer my services? Gets one into that circular logic. How do I get the job to get the experience I need to get the job?

This is not the last debate to be held on this subject. I have to agree with egosbar: whatever anyone thinks, it will not change the reality. Even if we ban all freebies on the forum and quadruple our freelance rates, there will always be other places for people to get cheaper work done. And they will.


[so Hoogle. I'll think I'll make a separate post to address the actual topic of the thread!]
 
Omg you two are like opening a short novel for another read :mrgreen:
 
it may be a bit late...

personally I think freebies are getting out of hand. end of story.

I’ve done a couple recently, and not one person at least said thank you or anything, they just left with it.

we need to develop a photoshop COMMUNITY not an image editing service! free or paid... and right now, I think the actual community is suffering because of this and other reason's I’ll discuss elsewhere.

you get all these people coming in saying "I’m no good with photoshop" ALL the BLOOMING time! well, neither was I, neither were you once upon a time, and we got somewhere and we got something out of it!

I'm personally not doing any more, because they just take their free edit and go.

at least the freelance section is policed well. but the free edits, not so much, they can turn into something that, to me, there should be payment for. simple five minute job like changing the colour of someone's hair or eyes yeah. but not a full drawing or something.

it's like drawing a stick man, and then asking us to make it look like a real person.

I say no, people should ask for help if they are no good with photoshop.

I never got super expensive tutoring to get where I am, good or not good, I taught myself and asked the right questions. I think it's about time these people did the same with a trial of photoshop, because i guarantee you, they've looked at it ONCE for about five minutes and not bothered.

rant over.
 
Okay this is my last post, something Hoogle wrote sparked me.

Buddy, it sounds like you let your clients dictate your worth, and that you let them take you, and your skills for granted on the off chance they want to pay. Thats simply crazy. Tell ANY pro designer how you conduct business, and they will look at you like you just told them you like to eat children. Do you even use project agreements? You know, those things clients sign so they know their rights and obligations, and if they refuse to pay once the work is done, you can take them to court to get the money???

The design industry IS suffering, and just because you let cheap skates pay you under the market standard, doesn't mean others are asking too much. Design isn't cheap, nor should it be. You don't operate like any serious professional I have ever met.

NO qualified pro I know does work on the off chance of getting paid. Its all written and signed by both parties. Its up to the designer to show their worth by educating the client, not underselling themselves to clients who don't appreciate how powerful good design can be in increasing profit for a business. You sound so desperate to get a client, any client, no matter how much they are taking advantage of you, you will accept the job.

PS: I'm not actually trying to be insulting here, I am just shocked, and I think you should consider putting more value on yourself. You sound like you try to go the extra mile for your clients, which is good, but it doesn't sound like they are returning the favour.
 
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