on giving hints or offering the full solution

[Erik]

Because as of lately there has been a difference in opinions on how to respond to certain questions with answers that can be found in the Help files of Photoshop or the manual that comes with it, allow me to post these lines written by ThE_JacO, a moderator of the XSI forum over at cgtalk. I do not post the complete text as it is clearly written with 3D in mind, but these quotes state very well how I personally feel about this. His English is much better than mine. (He's Italian):

"I think it's incredibly cool that some people (and it's very often the newcomers) are disposed to spoonfeed other users, it shows one of the most amazing human traits, that is the inclination to share knowledge, which is ultimately why we are all here I suppose.

If you feel like doing it, do so; it's surely not against the rules of Cgtalk but for those who require it you should remember one thing:
learning is a process, as all processes it represents an evolution.
If you just keep bumping into obstacles, wait for them to be removed for you, or to be taught how to perform a basic walkaround, you will be slow, and will never be independant.
Assuming you have an IQ that is average or above, what sets the real pros apart from the rest is, very simply put, the ability to learn, analyze and resolve.
If you don't force yourself into research for these very simple things, you'll be totally baffled the day you will be required to work on anything that is more challenging then a flying logo, this is true for anything, any form of art and any form of tech.
This sad trend that is emerging everyday more in this industry, of focusing on tools and memorizing workarounds or functions, is really not gonna help anybody.

I said it a lot of times and I'll say it again, what really matters IS YOUR STATE OF MIND !
The mental structure to tackle problems that you can only train yourself into if you do things yourself.
The will to study seemingly unrelated material to reach a higher understanding of the process.
The commitment to do things even when they seem totally boring.
The ability to focus, up to the point it borders stubborness, until you UNDERSTAND."

and

"since the initial post was mine, let me introduce a clarification...

the post was NOT intended to prevent people from asking simple questions, less then less wanted to promote any form of elitarism.

all questions are legit someone said, and I agree to the extent that implies that BEFORE asking the question you already spent some efforts on doing your best to figure it out.
if the manual was lacking, if you feel uncertain about parts of it, if you wonder the practical applications of something, or if you just want to share your newly found out knowledge, in the hope that someone more seasoned will also fill in the blanks, by all means do so; but only after you spent a little of your time on the issue please.

this is NOT something you do to spare people's bandwidth or time, this is something you have to do for yourself in first place.

the inciting to focus and find the willpower to study was the hinge of my post, and not some sick form of elitarism ."

As always: follow your own hearts and minds. This is so well formulated that I only give it as food for thought.

Thanks, ThE_JacO

 

[sPECtre]

Very well said, thanks for sharing, Erik!

 

[kenny62]

The writer makes some valid points, but overlooks the fact that many users have limited time to spend on overcoming obstacles, and in the face of continuing limited progress, may simply give up on learning to create artwork.

As an example, I certainly didn't feel that the three days I spent unsuccessfully trying to recreate "the golden interface bar" found on Eyeball Design was time well-spent.

RD

 

[MsOz]

Good point, Kenny.
But, you made the effort to follow the tutorial for the Golden Bar.
I think the point here is for those people who will not make ANY effort to even FIND the tutorial, they just post a "How do I do this effect?" type of question, with little to no effort expended to even seek an existing answer, preferring to be "spoon fed" by others.

If you make an effort, and have problems, that is one thing. It is an entirely different situation from seeing something on the web, and rather than taking any time to find an answer, merely posting a question on a Forum such as this, expecting someone else to hold your hand and tell you the same information that you could have found out yourself, had you only made an effort.

 

[fray]

I also think that there is some slight 'knee jerk' reaction to people posting a 'simple'/n00b question.
Why didnt the person check the manual?
Does this person even HAVE a manual?
If their program is an illegal download should I answer their question?

Today's typical web user is a teenager. The teens in today's society typically want the answer immediately and with the least amount of effort on their part. Our society is "immediate satisfaction for me", we want things done now and five minutes ago. We are constantly rushing to do this and rushing to do that. This behavior is being ingrained into the kids and I believe it will continue. I know that life was 'slower' for my parents than it is for me. The way technology and media has advanced has increased the communication times between people which has made life more 'urgent' or 'faster' if you will.
I believe that life will be 'faster' for my children too, unlesss I take steps to make it not so.

I have a tendency to help someone when I can. I also know if I am having a bad day that I am not going to call someone a st00pid n00b for asking a simple/easy question. In those cases I'll just say nothing. I know there is someone else who will be able to asnwer the question in my place because there are many helpful people online.

I'd like to think "teach those to fish and they will eat for a lifetime" philosophy works for me and those I help.

Ok, well... I think I blabbed on enough...

I like this smiley ---> 8[

 

[MsOz]

The utilization of a manual doesn't even really enter into this, Fray. There are TONS of tutorials on the Web for learning to do all kinds of effects, and there are equally TONS of articles on how to use Photoshop. We're talking taking 5 minutes to look up the information, or taking 30 seconds to post the question on a Forum and expect someone else to do the work for them...especially the "Stupid Noob" questions that have been already answered countless times prior, such as "How do I remove the background from a picture," or "How do I make a circle, rounded rectangle, ect." with no effort made to even see if someone else has asked the question.

In order to teach someone "how to fish," they have to at least want to learn. So many times anymore, newbies to Photoshop don't even want to learn. They just say "I need a fish," and expect to have someone hand it to them...

BTW, Welcome to PSG! Your wit and sense of humor should be well appreciated here!

 

[John1]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of this board is when everybody has a manual, help, tutorials, internet, newsgroup articles, etc?
This all doesn't make any sense. I think it's important to know why for example a guy like Mark used some of his precious time to write several tutorials that deal purely with the basics of Photoshop, most of it that can also be found in the manual or help. I tell you why, simply because he loves to help people, he loves to share. Sure, even he might think once a while; "On no, not that same question again", but the important difference is that he then decides to write a tutorial. Lots of people on this site have done the same. People like them make it possible that you CAN advice members to look it up with Google!
The internet has become such a great source of information, exactly because of this approach. My view has always been; you either help people or you don't, but you can't force people not to be lazy, because trust me, most of them are really smart enough to know that there are sources like help, manual, internet, books, etc.

Just my view on things

 

[MsOz]

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of this board is when everybody has a manual, help, tutorials, internet, newsgroup articles, etc?

The purpose of these boards is to SHARE information, regarding new ideas, new techniques, new ways of doing things, or deconstructing an effect to recreate it. Sharing implies a two-way interaction, not just being a repository of answers for the lazy.

That is a far different thing from "spoon-feeding" the basics to those too lazy to even bother using a search engine, much less look in the help files or the User Manual.

Here, we explore the tools and techniques of Photoshop, and (usually) post questions when we hit "bumps" in the execution of a tutorial, or don't quite understand some of the concepts behind the various tools or techniques we learn.

If you notice, Mark doesn't by and large reply to the questions that have the answers more than readily available to anyone willing to make some effort at finding them. Even the tutorials you find on the web quite often state "some knowledge of Photoshop is required to follow this tutorial."

Mark has been kind enough to create "basic" tutorials, but quite often, the posters of "stupid noob" questions haven't even bothered to read those!

Yes, the lazy will never be eliminated. BUT, by making an effort to inform them that some effort is required on their part to learn this application, everyone's time is better spent SHARING and GROWING, rather than hand holding those expecting to create great effects with just a couple of clicks...

They may be smart enough to read the manual, or type in a search engine query, but that doesn't mean they are smart enough to try and find the answers. It takes some prodding from those of us who HAVE made the effort to learn or find an answer before posting a simple question that has been asked countless times before.

 

[JessFox]

My feelings on the matter

See, now I feel dumb for asking some of my prior questions...I suppose I could go to the trouble of looking in a manual but someitmes if I ask around I find out new techniques from other masters of the trade. In some cases it takes a special way of explaining things to some people who just "aren't getting it". Manuals and tutorials can be confusing and intimidating...
I enjoy helping people expecially when I can teach them something new that I learned from someone else.
Thats why I joined this board...

yeah, I know, good for me...

 

[MsOz]

Finding out new techniques implies that you already have a grasp of the basics. If you are posting on forums for answers to the basics, then you are not learning anything new or better from others, you are only taking advantage of their time and generousity by having them tell you the very same basic information (how certain tools work, how to do the "basic" effects that tutorials exist by the boatload explaining, etc.) because you're "intimidated" by a tutorial...sorry, but how do you think so many others have learned before you?

New techniques, I agree. That is how we all grow. But basic noob questions you should be able to answer for yourself, uh-uh...Show that you want to learn enough to make some effort beyond being able to type in a forum question in IM abbreviations, or worse yet, upload some image off the web and ask "how do I do this effect?" Like any skill, you have to take some time and learn it.

 

[Klaatu Baradda Nikto]

Whose Teaching Whom?

Greetings PSGers,
As an additional twist on this topic, there is often no better way to learn a topic than by teaching it (e.g., making a tutorial of it).
Part of the reward of "sharing" a technique or solving a particular problem is the education it provides to the one sharing it! This is also, btw, something completely missed by many newbies.
The advanced user (aka, poweruser) is someone who has actually READ the manuals, done the tutorials, explored and experimented far beyond the average user. Yet, as knowledgeable as they may be, teaching others offers an additional boost to knowledge by organizing thoughts, filling in the "blanks" or providing the opportunity to understand a technique more thoroughly. The advanced level is often one of nuances, slight adjustments and refinements.

 

[MsOz]

Good point, Klaatu.
But the question then arises as to how many times should a low-level technique be taught when the answer could be easily found with a bit of effort, oft times faster than posting the question and waiting for the answer.
Also, the discussion here is in regards to the querier making some effort to solve a question on their own, or merely asking for someone to "teach" them, when, on occassion, there is no intent to learn, merely to have someone do the work for them once they provide a basic image.
The sharing of nuances cannot be achieved without some grasp of the basics. The level of intent can many times be seen by the amount of effort expended in finding the answer for oneself before posting a query.

 

[Klaatu Baradda Nikto]

The sharing of nuances cannot be achieved without some grasp of the basics. The level of intent can many times be seen by the amount of effort expended in finding the answer for oneself before posting a query.

Greetings MsOz,
Not sure if you completely understood the point we were making. We do understand everything you have said as well as the main thrust of this thread. Preaching to the chior here.

Our point was to highlight an issue that may well be overlooked in this eager pursuit to curb the newbie impulse of taking the lazy route. Namely, how a certain symbiosis takes place between student and teacher. In the process of instructing, the teacher learns a great deal more than the student. This certainly is beneficial for advanced users to know. Isn't it?

From another perspective, a newbie (at anything) is basically uninitiated and has not yet developed the skills or sensibilites of the advanced veteran. It's neither wise nor practical to try to eliminate what is ultimately a natural newbie instinct (and dare we say, a natural step in the initiation process) to ask stupid questions. Just remember, there will ALWAYS be beginners. Lifting consciousness is a group effort. The challenge for the advance user is really in being patient.

In the effort to help advanced users with this patience, it may be useful for them to understand how a deeper understanding and greater expertise can be developed in the process of helping others.

In truth, we are all students... just at different levels.

 

[MsOz]

Our point was to highlight an issue that may well be overlooked in this eager pursuit to curb the newbie impulse of taking the lazy route. Namely, how a certain symbiosis takes place between student and teacher. In the process of instructing, the teacher learns a great deal more than the student. This certainly is beneficial for advanced users to know. Isn't it?

First off, Klaatu, the issue you are trying to "highlight," of the symbiosis of the sharing of knowledge, experience, and expertise is not overlooked on these Forums. That should be more than obvious by a simple exploration of the various areas here, ranging from the NEW USER Area, to the Technical Q&A, to the Quick Tips & Techniques. It is not so much of an "eager pursuit to curb the newbie impulse of taking the lazy route," as is it an effort to guide the newbie into a smooth interaction between learning a new software application AND learning how the concept of sharing information is not the same as being spoon-fed. Perhaps it is you who does not fully understand what is being stated here...

From another perspective, a newbie (at anything) is basically uninitiated and has not yet developed the skills or sensibilites of the advanced veteran. It's neither wise nor practical to try to eliminate what is ultimately a natural newbie instinct (and dare we say, a natural step in the initiation process) to ask stupid questions.

Klaatu, you give far too much leeway and credence to new users with such a patronizing attitude. It is NOT a newbie "impulse" to take the lazy way, nor is it a "natural newbie instinct" to ask stupid questions. For those truly wishing to learn to use a software application, there is more of a desire to learn than to be lazy. Stupid questions are seldom asked by those desiring to learn, as they are seeking answers; their questions will be quite distinct and discernable from the lazy users, as the questions will not be those asked (and answered) countless times previously. They will be questions relating to not understanding something, or problems relating to the function of a tool or a technique. They will not be the questions of "Hi, I just got Photoshop, and don't know how to use it, but I want to make this really cool complex image that I saw on this website. Can someone here show me how to do it?"

Just remember, there will ALWAYS be beginners. Lifting consciousness is a group effort. The challenge for the advance user is really in being patient.

Just because there will always be beginners, Klaatu, does not change the fact for one moment that the knowledge is already out there. If a question has been answered, and the answer is there for the taking, it does nothing to raise the consciousness of the group to repeat the answer that has been given, and is documented and easily retrievable with a minimum of effort on the questioner's part. There is a fine line of difference between "patience" and being taken advantage of. The latter is NOT the purpose of these forums, in that there is no mandatory obligation for the advanced users to fulfill every whim of the new users who are unwilling to make that modicum of effort. When we are presented with sincere efforts and questions are posed in the interest of sharing information, certainly you will have noticed how many of the members, both advanced and new users, will make a concerted effort to discuss situations and offer various solutions in an effort to clarify and help with understanding. For those too lazy to make efforts at finding an answer, and who merely post their tutorial wish list as one would order fast food at a drive through, gentle directions to the use of this forum's search engine, or a web search are given. Not with a lack of patience, but more often with a genuine wish to help the student learn to access the answers already in existance, thereby enabling all of us to continue to move forward, each at their own pace, but without hobbling the advanced users in the role of "philanthropic Photoshop babysitters."

In the effort to help advanced users with this patience, it may be useful for them to understand how a deeper understanding and greater expertise can be developed in the process of helping others.

In truth, we are all students... just at different levels.

Klaatu, why do you feel that advanced users are in need of help to understand this patience? There is no lack of understanding of the mutual fulfillment that can be gained by the master helping the pupil. You are confusing one's desire to learn and the skills gained by doing with the desire to have the answer simply handed to one on a platter upon demand, with little to no effort on the part of the student themselves. You say that I am preaching to the choir, when in truth, it is yourself who is missing the nuances of perception here by your misdirected belief that newbies are somehow being mistreated or deprived by having some expectation of self-involvement present and expressed to them.

The deeper understanding and expertise that is gained by the sharing of information and learning is quite well and thriving on this site, and has been for quite awhile now. Your presentation of mutual symbiosis as regards the assistance of newbies is well known and accepted, and widely practiced both here, and on many other art forums. This thread was started, and has prevailed, for those users not understanding the concept of "don't ask for help, if you are not willing to help yourself." The further discussions herein are merely to continue to try to clarify the perception that "spoon feeding" answers instead of encouraging discovery and experimentation is, in the long run, detrimental to all parties concerned, as the new users do not learn these two most valuable of skills, and the advanced users are relegated to nursemaid, pointing out the same basic answers over and over, instead of progressing forward, interacting with the other users and evolving ever new and changing techniques and effects. There is no need to continue re-inventing the wheel. The basics are quite well covered by the User Manual, the online Help files (F1), and search engines, both forum specific and World Wide Web capable containing countless articles and tutorials relating to most effects that the new users wish to emulate.

It is never too early for a newbie to start learning to do for themselves. That is not restricting their sharing of knowledge, that is just allowing them to progress at their own speed by their own choice, instead of making others slow down and do it for them. After all, that is how most of us "advanced users" got to this point. We studied, experimented, and practiced. This concept also, is nothing new to this site, nor many of the better art forums on the 'Web.

For those with the time to spare and the inclination to provide in-depth, step by step instructions to requests, yes, it can give one a sense of satisfaction in helping another to accomplish a task, but to do so robs the true student of the learning process, as memory is best sharpened with hands-on experience, with helpful signposts along the way, not someone making the journey for you.

 

[Welles]

Welcome to the forums Klaatu Baradda Nikto. I'm one of the people who often try answer questions with fairly comprehensive answers. I don't even have to justify it ( ) but I agree with your point of view and am glad you added it.

8[ Go Gort! 8[

 

[JoeD]

It's all so simple; you help people or you don't. I never understood the whole purpose of this thread.

See, I'm not going to advice a beginner (I don't like the word "newbie") who just figured out how to use a mask, to stop helping other beginners with the same problem. I don't see any harm in members helping members. Most beginners are actually very happy when for once they're able to help someone else. The result; two happy beginners. And that's what it's all about; joy. Let's be honest; how many times have we read; "I'm a complete beginner, but hopefully soon I can do something in return by helping others".
Photoshopgurus is for most people not a preparation for an ACE exam, it's about a community of people having fun with Photoshop, nothing more, nothing less.

My experience with what people call "spoon feeding" has been positive; you get people excited with a rather overwhelming tool like Photoshop. It leads to more and more people who show interest in this beautiful program.

Let's say someone is interested in graphics but who has never worked with any related software. Give them Photoshop, F1, Google and a manual or sit down with them for 2 hours.
Which approach has the highest probability that the user will continue to use Photoshop? I know, because I've seen the results over and over.

Let's make it clear though; I agree 100% that "spoon feeding" the same person over and over has to stop at one point, but to get people really excited with this tool you sometimes have to give them that extra push. I 100% believe in this approach and that it will lead to more people using photoshop and experiencing the same joy. One has to come up with good arguments to change my view on this. Until now I haven't met that person.

It's all about finding the right balance between this "spoon feeding" and helping people who have hard time to find the right answers on their own and I think Welles and Mark (but also many others) have shown that it's possible to have this balance, without restricting people in the way they should ask questions.

I just wanted to added my view and that's the only thing I'm going to add to this thread.

 

[MsOz]

Well Joe, just keep in mind that all the praise you've just given is in response to a forum that embodies most of the concepts discussed in this thread.

If you look close, you will find that by and large, you don't see a plethora of "stewpid newb" questions, nor do you find a vast and overwhelming sea of "refrigerator art" postings. Due to the efforts of Mark and many others here, most members approach this dance with the enthusiasm and intelligence of those truly wanting to learn. It's part of what makes PSG a worthwhile forum for advanced users as well as beginners.

Other forums, who have swung too far in the overindulgence towards non-motivated technique wishers, have lost much of their talent, as there is little reward or satisfaction in continuous spoon-feeding. It's not spoon-feeding the same person over and over that is the problem; it is the never ending stream of the spoon-feedees, and their belief that they are the only person to have ever had their question come up (such as putting someone into a picture), and their lack of effort to see the solutions that have already been answered for the previous dozens of newbies with the same situation. Without a thread such as this one, far too much time and bandwidth would be wasted going over well mapped ground because such beginners are too lazy to make an effort to look.

"It's so simple." Were it only your time, possibly so. But, since newbies, in addition to inexperience and excitement, also can tend to be selfish and impatient due to inexperience in Forum interactions and netiquette, things are not as simple as they appear to you from an individual standpoint. Hence, threads such as this one on forums such as this one (and no, PSG is NOT the only art forum to attempt to filter out the "users" and "do it for me's" that patronize them). It's called raising the awareness level of users. Sometimes, people need a bit of a wake-up call to realize that maybe they are taking advantage of others by expecting to have answers given to them, in detail, step by step, when it was already done last week, or last month. There is no harm in helping each other. That is interaction. We are talking those who make no effort at interaction beyond posting their question. No using the search function to see if the question's been asked and/or answered. No posted examples of what techniques/effects were attempted in an effort to solve the query, just a "How do I make this kewl effect? I don't know how to use any of the tools other than the paintbrush"-type of queries.

By all means, knock yourself out helping any and every beginner you come across. After you find yourself posting an easily found, popular link for the umpteenth time, or explaining that the crop tool is really, REALLY well explained in the User Manual or Online help files, you may find that the spirit of selfless sharing becomes somewhat dulled, because you are not sharing your skills, you're spoon-feeding such basic, commonly found knowledge, that you are less of an artist interacting as you are 411 Directory assistance. But hey, that's how some people justify their reason to Live. No one ever replies to such efforts with a "Why'd you tell him how to do that? Why didn't you make him go look it up first?", so don't worry about it.

This thread merely displays that spoon-feeding is not a granted right to those visiting forums, that self-effort is appreciated by all in the learning arena, and that everyone in a forum benefits when interactions move forward, rather than repeatedly covering the same ground again and again. I can't speak for you, but my idea of fun here at PSG is not seeing the same type of post requesting tips to make a "crystal sig" pop up every 3-4 days, ya know? It is precisely the "restricting" of asking those type of questions, or encouraging spoon-feeding that makes things more enjoyable for everyone. I think if you check many of Mark's replies to questions, you will see that he encourages exploration, and will often provide little hints or teasers, but seldom jumps right in and answers questions with spelled out mini-tutorials for those topics well-known and documented...

People having a hard time finding answers on their own again implies that some effort was made in the first place. That is NOT what this topic is about. So, your staunch stance on helping is a moot argument. That is not the issue. The issue is spoon-feeding those who make little to no effort to find an answer beyond starting a new thread asking for someone to spell it all out in detail, okay? You don't have to understand this thread unless you are one of those type of individuals.

 

[Klaatu Baradda Nikto]

For those with the time to spare and the inclination to provide in-depth, step by step instructions to requests, yes, it can give one a sense of satisfaction in helping another to accomplish a task, but to do so robs the true student of the learning process, as memory is best sharpened with hands-on experience, with helpful signposts along the way, not someone making the journey for you.

Greetings MsOz,
Your passion in this is compelling and greatly admired. We withdraw our statements with many apologies for bringing up the issue.

 

[Klaatu Baradda Nikto]

Welcome to the forums Klaatu Baradda Nikto. I'm one of the people who often try answer questions with fairly comprehensive answers. I don't even have to justify it ( ) but I agree with your point of view and am glad you added it. 8[ Go Gort! 8[

Greetings Welles,
Thank you very much for the welcome. As lurkers, we have admired your work and expertise here for sometime. Gort is particularly flattered and wants your avatar rivetted to his forehead.

 

[Welles]

Gort is particularly flattered and wants your avatar rivetted to his forehead.