ALB68
Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Thanks for posting that Steve. Very interesting work that Dragan. He must be widely known, just not by me. Now I am educated.
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Older gentleman manipulation-painterly look-Please comment
- Thread starter ALB68
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ibclare
Queen Bee
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OK, I hate to be the wet rag on this. Yeah, your image looks like something scary out of a wax museum. Maybe that was your goal.
How is it that I think you don't really take the suggestions you receive from members here who have experience doing colorizations. I don't give it out to you anymore because I do find it a bit frustrating. It seems to fall on deaf ears. I know I am being harsh, but I have not said anything for quite a while. But I think if you really want to progress, even if it is to find your own style, then you should pay more attention. Not only to the words, but to the many images people post of what they have done.
You don't have to copy anyone, but I had a wise art teacher once who said, you have to learn to run before you can fly. No, he didn't say that. But he did say that you need to learn the conventions of art (whether drawing, painting, photography, or digital art) before you can bend and break the rules. Picasso did not start out making avante garde abstracts. Henri Cartier-Bresson did not walk out into the French Streets and just discover the Decisive Moment the first day he took his camera out.
If you practice doing colorization the conventional way and learn that first, it just might mean copying styles I would suggest, then you can go about bending and breaking rules.
In no way, am I trying to discourage your efforts. I just don't like the fact that one after the other, they display the same lack of progress. I am only trying to help but I don't think it will feel that way to you. I'm sorry if that's the case, but I would like to see you learn and I don't think I should just sit on the sidelines with an opinion I think is relevant.
How is it that I think you don't really take the suggestions you receive from members here who have experience doing colorizations. I don't give it out to you anymore because I do find it a bit frustrating. It seems to fall on deaf ears. I know I am being harsh, but I have not said anything for quite a while. But I think if you really want to progress, even if it is to find your own style, then you should pay more attention. Not only to the words, but to the many images people post of what they have done.
You don't have to copy anyone, but I had a wise art teacher once who said, you have to learn to run before you can fly. No, he didn't say that. But he did say that you need to learn the conventions of art (whether drawing, painting, photography, or digital art) before you can bend and break the rules. Picasso did not start out making avante garde abstracts. Henri Cartier-Bresson did not walk out into the French Streets and just discover the Decisive Moment the first day he took his camera out.
If you practice doing colorization the conventional way and learn that first, it just might mean copying styles I would suggest, then you can go about bending and breaking rules.
In no way, am I trying to discourage your efforts. I just don't like the fact that one after the other, they display the same lack of progress. I am only trying to help but I don't think it will feel that way to you. I'm sorry if that's the case, but I would like to see you learn and I don't think I should just sit on the sidelines with an opinion I think is relevant.
sheBangry
Tom Mann
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Here's my take on the situation ...
There truly are an infinite number of ways to randomly tweak an image and get some effect that, for a brief moment, might look far-out / uber-cool / interesting / etc. I think this is exactly where ALB is in his artistic development. My guess is that he's just now figuring out what all these amazing new tools can do, which ones appeal to him, etc., but is just at the beginning stages of giving thought to where he eventually wants his art to go. This is not a bad thing. Everyone goes through this stage.
Unfortunately, in contrast to random tweaking, there usually are only a very limited number of ways to tweak an image to obtain any one particular look. Consistent, repeatable success at obtaining even just one "look" helps viewers gauge the technical skill, merit and dedication of the artist.
The look, the personal statement, the oeuvre that one eventually wants to compile may be realistic (I often go in this direction), it may be Dragan-like, it may be a melting-clock Picasso-like look, a wax-dummy look, a sci-fi or pixies-in-the-forest fantasy look, a corpus of flat surreal B&W colorations, or whatever the person settles on to express some inner feeling -- ie, the way THEY see the world. However, without some evidence that a particular look was intentional, reproducible / consistent, and in support of some overall artistic goal, and not just the result of random twiddling of some sliders, the artistic value of random experiments is very, very low.
In fact, it can be so low that in the absence of clear statements of intent (eg, "I set out to get a wax look", "I wanted to try to make a B&W coloration that looked like it was made by a primitive", etc.) , repetition of simple experiments can annoy folks who *really* want to help. IMHO, one problem is that, for example, ALB never pointed out that an image looked waxen until someone else (iDad, in this thread) first pointed it out to him. As I recall, this has happened numerous times in the past. It makes it appear that he neither had intent before he performed his manipulations, nor had after-the-fact recognition of what he did.
I'm not suggesting that ALB immediately does anything this, but think of how incredibly different we would perceive his work if he posted a technically consistent series of satirical wax dummy-like images of political figures, surreal wax mothers watching their kids play, etc. The intent would be obvious, because, at minimum, the technique would display internally consistent, repeatable artistic skills, even if only in one narrow area of technique. Heck, if he concentrated just on wax-like political figures he could aspire to become the modern version of Honoré Daumier.
For the above reasons, I'm more than willing to cut ALB lots of slack in his experiments, although, like Clare, I've now somewhat dialed back comments on specific ways to "improve" his images to make them look more conventionally acceptable.
Best regards,
Tom M
There truly are an infinite number of ways to randomly tweak an image and get some effect that, for a brief moment, might look far-out / uber-cool / interesting / etc. I think this is exactly where ALB is in his artistic development. My guess is that he's just now figuring out what all these amazing new tools can do, which ones appeal to him, etc., but is just at the beginning stages of giving thought to where he eventually wants his art to go. This is not a bad thing. Everyone goes through this stage.
Unfortunately, in contrast to random tweaking, there usually are only a very limited number of ways to tweak an image to obtain any one particular look. Consistent, repeatable success at obtaining even just one "look" helps viewers gauge the technical skill, merit and dedication of the artist.
The look, the personal statement, the oeuvre that one eventually wants to compile may be realistic (I often go in this direction), it may be Dragan-like, it may be a melting-clock Picasso-like look, a wax-dummy look, a sci-fi or pixies-in-the-forest fantasy look, a corpus of flat surreal B&W colorations, or whatever the person settles on to express some inner feeling -- ie, the way THEY see the world. However, without some evidence that a particular look was intentional, reproducible / consistent, and in support of some overall artistic goal, and not just the result of random twiddling of some sliders, the artistic value of random experiments is very, very low.
In fact, it can be so low that in the absence of clear statements of intent (eg, "I set out to get a wax look", "I wanted to try to make a B&W coloration that looked like it was made by a primitive", etc.) , repetition of simple experiments can annoy folks who *really* want to help. IMHO, one problem is that, for example, ALB never pointed out that an image looked waxen until someone else (iDad, in this thread) first pointed it out to him. As I recall, this has happened numerous times in the past. It makes it appear that he neither had intent before he performed his manipulations, nor had after-the-fact recognition of what he did.
I'm not suggesting that ALB immediately does anything this, but think of how incredibly different we would perceive his work if he posted a technically consistent series of satirical wax dummy-like images of political figures, surreal wax mothers watching their kids play, etc. The intent would be obvious, because, at minimum, the technique would display internally consistent, repeatable artistic skills, even if only in one narrow area of technique. Heck, if he concentrated just on wax-like political figures he could aspire to become the modern version of Honoré Daumier.
For the above reasons, I'm more than willing to cut ALB lots of slack in his experiments, although, like Clare, I've now somewhat dialed back comments on specific ways to "improve" his images to make them look more conventionally acceptable.
Best regards,
Tom M
Paul
Former Member
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Regardless of any of that, he made his manipulation and then posted for critique (which he as had in spades).
So all future entries to the boards need to be justified and an in depth explanation added just to set everyone straight before we all jump in and critique? said with my tongue in my cheek.
So all future entries to the boards need to be justified and an in depth explanation added just to set everyone straight before we all jump in and critique? said with my tongue in my cheek.
ALB68
Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Well..It appears I have been fallen upon by the graphics police. Regardless of your thoughts Clare, I have learned a lot. When I started out, I had no idea of a technical method to correct color, other than just sliding some sliders or curves around hoping for the best. Thanks to Tom's advice I jumped into that ,learned the methodology using curves and selective color. My skin tone corrections have dramatically improved I think.I had no knowledge about blend modes and had no idea what they did,do now. A great many of the tools were total mystery to me, I decided to learn what every tool in the tool box would do. I had never even heard of Topaz or the other plug ins. The use of layer masks has greatly expanded also. So, it is unfair to me to say I keep posting the same errors over and over when your not residing in my head. When I came to this forum Clare, you said to post and I have tried to do so to try and get feedback that I could understand. No, I am not an artist,nor do I aspire to be one, but I do love the process and love to create. I am into laser engraving, which involves a lot of vector work and we also do dye sublimation which Photoshop is great for. So I have a practical use for what I am learning and not just for play. But thank you for your attention.
As Tom has so stated, I am in discovery of all the wonderful tools and their functions and I suppose I have gone a little far with the waxy look. Maybe not to some, but it appeals to me, and by the way, I can duplicate it over and over now. It isn't just a happenstance. I did discover it pretty much by accident, but you gotta give me credit, I'm working at it. Maybe, as you say Tom, it probably has its place maybe with political subjects etc.
But, I am highly appreciative of your comments and critiques. I do get a little upset when I work on something and it turns out well enough to post(in my mind anyway) and then I get NO comments. I can take constructive criticism as I am a big boy,soon to be 68 yrs old. My skin is thick, so you can't hurt me. I will try in the future Paul to state my intent for an image.
As Tom has so stated, I am in discovery of all the wonderful tools and their functions and I suppose I have gone a little far with the waxy look. Maybe not to some, but it appeals to me, and by the way, I can duplicate it over and over now. It isn't just a happenstance. I did discover it pretty much by accident, but you gotta give me credit, I'm working at it. Maybe, as you say Tom, it probably has its place maybe with political subjects etc.
But, I am highly appreciative of your comments and critiques. I do get a little upset when I work on something and it turns out well enough to post(in my mind anyway) and then I get NO comments. I can take constructive criticism as I am a big boy,soon to be 68 yrs old. My skin is thick, so you can't hurt me. I will try in the future Paul to state my intent for an image.
Steve
Retired Administrator
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Keep posting ALB, adapt the suggestions that work for you and file away the ones that don't, they may be helpful in the future.
Develop your own style, and please yourself first.
The best way to present an image for a critique IMHO is explain what you're trying to accomplish, what look you're going for.
That will help others give you "their ideas" on how to improve your image or better accomplish the look you want.
Cheers
Steve
Develop your own style, and please yourself first.
The best way to present an image for a critique IMHO is explain what you're trying to accomplish, what look you're going for.
That will help others give you "their ideas" on how to improve your image or better accomplish the look you want.
Cheers
Steve
ibclare
Queen Bee
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I probably should have sat on my post for awhile longer ALB. I know you are talented. But like Tom said, I also dialed back on my comments because they seemed to be being ignored. I guess that was not the case. We've all been in the situation of learning the tools and making strange images. I took a lot of heat here for my early colorization attempts. (from hoogle especially who knew he could give it to me and I wouldn't be offended ... feelings hurt for a few minutes maybe, lol) But you have to keep going and showing. SO thank you for posting your work. I appreciate that and will do better in posting comments regarding your it.
I'm still learning too. In fact, diplomacy is not my forte. I try to soften my thoughts, keeping in mind what seems to be the intent of the artist. I guess I'm not always the most patient nor always do I practice "restraint of tongue and pen," but I try to temper my words with empathy . . . most of the time.
I do agree with Paul and Tom, that if you explain your goal, we can all enjoy the results more. Don't let anything I say stop you!
I'm still learning too. In fact, diplomacy is not my forte. I try to soften my thoughts, keeping in mind what seems to be the intent of the artist. I guess I'm not always the most patient nor always do I practice "restraint of tongue and pen," but I try to temper my words with empathy . . . most of the time.
I do agree with Paul and Tom, that if you explain your goal, we can all enjoy the results more. Don't let anything I say stop you!
ALB68
Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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Clare,
That is very thoughtful of you to rethink your post. Many times this virtual environment we exist in here can be deceiving. I perceived that I was trying to state what my intent was for my posts. If you consider what I have posted, a great deal of it has been devoted to colorization. That was my primary interest along with restorations in the beginning. It should have been pretty clear what the intent was and I so stated I think. I saw all of the wondeful things being posted by other members, such as you, Inkz, Cindy and others. That set me on a path of experimentation to see if I could create images as I had seen. I soon realized the difficulty and knowledge required to build these composites. Unfortunately I am not able to create those type of images right now and my attempts appeared lame to all of you true Gurus. That did not mean I had ignored your advice, but I have to admit, some of the information you gave me was above my level of ability. Your a trained artist, I am not even close to that. So I wasn't ignoring it, I just didn't comprehend it. I too, took heat, especially from Tom, on some of those awful first colorizations I did. I took what he said to heart and I solved my problem of not having a tried and true methodology to be consistent in my efforts. No, I refuse to be discouraged by a little online heat in this effort. So, thanks again for your posting your thoughts. Believe it or not, I have made a huge amount of progress with PS that is not necessarily demonstrated in the end results. This forum is the motivation to press on.
That is very thoughtful of you to rethink your post. Many times this virtual environment we exist in here can be deceiving. I perceived that I was trying to state what my intent was for my posts. If you consider what I have posted, a great deal of it has been devoted to colorization. That was my primary interest along with restorations in the beginning. It should have been pretty clear what the intent was and I so stated I think. I saw all of the wondeful things being posted by other members, such as you, Inkz, Cindy and others. That set me on a path of experimentation to see if I could create images as I had seen. I soon realized the difficulty and knowledge required to build these composites. Unfortunately I am not able to create those type of images right now and my attempts appeared lame to all of you true Gurus. That did not mean I had ignored your advice, but I have to admit, some of the information you gave me was above my level of ability. Your a trained artist, I am not even close to that. So I wasn't ignoring it, I just didn't comprehend it. I too, took heat, especially from Tom, on some of those awful first colorizations I did. I took what he said to heart and I solved my problem of not having a tried and true methodology to be consistent in my efforts. No, I refuse to be discouraged by a little online heat in this effort. So, thanks again for your posting your thoughts. Believe it or not, I have made a huge amount of progress with PS that is not necessarily demonstrated in the end results. This forum is the motivation to press on.
ALB68
Dear Departed Guru and PSG Staff Member
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So very true my friend. If I knew then what I know now blah blah blah...
We all climb the long steps of life mate, those near to the top have better views do they not