Using Refine Edge with Quick Selection

[dkperez]

I'm not sure what's going on over at the Adobe Photoshop forum, but I've tried three different browsers and I can't get the Create/reply buttons after I log in. So, since life's too short to put up with whatever they're doing, I'll try here...

Here's the long version:
I do a quick selection, then hit the "Refine Edge" button and make a change to the selection, but my change doesn't "take"...

Take an image, one layer (background), absolutely normal, boring image (for example, a white swan sitting in the blue water). Go in with Quick Select and select PART OF the swan. Leave some areas not selected, and select some water (areas that are selected and shouldn't be). I need to refine my selection. I subtract and add bits of selection with the Quick Select tool, but EVENTUALLY I'm going to have to do a more accurate refinement than the quick selection tool can do.


Hit "Refine Edge" from the tool bar and select "Overlay" for the view mode. I can see what's selected, and know what I'd like to change. I have a red overlay so I have a visual guide to changing things....
Go to the "Refine Radius Tool" and paint over an area I want ADDED to my selection (a piece of swan immediately adjacent to my original selection)... It runs red, like I'd expect. I release the mouse and a second later, the red goes away, and the selection has NOT been changed. I've tried this several different ways, and I'm unable to refine my selection from the Refine Edge tool...



I looked at Martin Evening's CS5 book, and as near as I can tell, I did exactly what he described... He got a selection, added to the selection, and it worked fine...
I figure I've got something configured wrong, or something else goofed up. What am I missing here?





The SHORT version:
If I need a complex selection, and do the initial select with the Quick Select tool, HOW do I refine the edges and content of that selection? How SHOULD the "Refine Radius Tool" in "Refine Edge" work?

 

[Stric9]

I think you are trying to use a tool out of its parameters and expecting miracles. Make the most accurate selection possible to start with, then make "minor" changes with refine edge.

If you would upload your photo and we can give you opinions on which selection method would work best for you.

 

[dkperez]

If that's the case - that I"m trying to make the refine edge (specifically the Refine Radius Tool) operate outside it's capability, I'm going to have to go find some better information on the tool... Anyhow, here's the image...



My purpose on this image is to test the Quick Select/Refine Edge since I was told it's the best way to get an optimal selection...

Take the Quick Select tool and, using a smallish size (in this case, I used 9 pixels) and select both swans. Clean up by removing excess selections and get a fairly good selection. When I did this, I found that regardless of my brush size, I couldn't get all the edges right.

Hit "Refine Edge" and used the "Refine Radius Tool" to get the edges of my selection right. It worked fine in SOME areas, but in other areas it actually made the edges worse. For example, at the bottom of the swans, where there's water showing between them, using the refine radius tool made the edge worse.

So, despite the claims that this is the optimal way to get a selection, it appears that I still have to refine the edge then take something like the polygonal lasso or whatever, and finish the edge with yet another tool...

 

[Stric9]

I think you may have been misguided or possible just misunderstood. The quick selection tool is awesome in the right circumstance, but it isn't the best way for getting a good selection. There is no best way. The image determines the selection method. Since this image has a lot of contrast already between what you want selected and what you don't I would make a channels based selection. The pen tool would be good here too.

 

[dkperez]

I recognize there are a lot of different ways to get good selections. And the ones where I've seen this demonstrated use images with lots of blowing hair or fluffy kittens or whatever. I don't have any blowing hair since I don't shoot people, but I tried it on raccoon kits, and it was middling useful. So, I switched to this image, which should be easier for the tool since the edges are better.

Maybe that's the problem? 'Cause it definitely doesn't do a very good job here. Where I do the "refine edge" and try to use the tool, it keeps making areas that were already selected less consistent.

I'll have to keep playing with it, but I've now read Martin Evenings book, and watched two different experts including Russell Brown proclaim this to be the be-all and end-all of getting perfect selections in difficult situations. So far, my results haven't been as good as theirs, but I'll continue playing.

 

[Stric9]

Here is a channels based selection using the red channel.

Now you can use refine edge to soften the selection if you like.

 

[dkperez]

I have a number of methods I use to do selections regularly, including the one you showed - using the channels. What's interesting is that in one of the videos I watched of a selection being made, the person showing it specifically classified using channels for doing this as "what we used to have to do before we got the quick selection and refine edge tools", and that we now have "much better tools for doing this" etc... It was because of the repeated exposure to people hyping this "new" method that I tried it to see if it was indeed magically quick, easy, and perfect...

It's becoming clearer to me that even though Adobe may add new methods to Photoshop, it'll still be necessary to have a whole bag of ways to do things 'cause the magical new ones will sometimes not work and we'll have to go back to the "old school" methods...