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Prophoto RGB Photos look dark on the Web


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francklouis

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I am editing my EOS 5D mk ii photos in Photoshop 5 and CC using Prophoto RGB setting in Color Preference Panel. The photos look great on my Hi Res Dell monitor.




Problem:

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1) When I upload the photos to the web they look darker and more saturated with a greyish tint and don’t have the clean look they had when I viewed them in photoshop.

Is there an expert out there that can run through the complete set up of my preferences and color settings and workflow so that the photos I edit in photoshop look exactly the same once they are uploaded to a webpage as what they do when I look at them in Photoshop 5 or CC.

2) Will the 8 or 16 bit setting on the EOS 5D mk ii camera make a difference to this color problem?


Thanks for any help here.

Frank

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Hi francklouis,
Welcome to the forum.
Tom Mann or another member Mr Tom can help you with your question.
 
This isn't really my field, Mr Mann is the guy for photography related problems but I'll fill in a few details meantime...

I could only guess that's its a colour profile issue.....you should always upload photo's for the web with an sRGB colour profile.
Almost every browser uses sRGB to display images...unless its been changed.

You should aim to get your images looking the way you want them in this same profile, then when you upload them they shouldn't look any different.

Using 'Save For Web' in Photoshop has the option to use sRGB when saving....its advisable to do so.
This doesn't mean you have to keep your original PSD file in sRGB, in fact its common to work in Adobe RGB(1998) and only save out in sRGB when you're done.

Thats the short version of what I know, Mr Mann is more familiar with the software you've mentioned so I'd go by what he says...but in case he doesn't reply you have have my thoughts above.

Sorry I can't be any more help than that.

Regards.
MrTom.
 
The web prefers sRGB.
Browsers and viewers are supposed to support Adobe RGB 1998, but in fact they're very flaky with uneven results.
Virtually no consumer viewers, printers, or cameras, support ProPhoto including your camera.
Shoot in Adobe RGB 1998 and convert them to sRGB when posting to the web and you'll be fine.
 
If you could post one of your jpg files that exhibits this behavior, we could quickly confirm what the problem is.

Tom
 
Thanks for reply Tom,

I would be interested in any other advice with this problem by Photoshop professionals, as this is a problem that has me confused at the moment and until I can sort it out I am reluctant to spend too much time on editing in Photoshop.

Thanks for any more comments,

Franck :wink:

MrTom said:
This isn't really my field, Mr Mann is the guy for photography related problems but I'll fill in a few details meantime...

I could only guess that's its a colour profile issue.....you should always upload photo's for the web with an sRGB colour profile.
Almost every browser uses sRGB to display images...unless its been changed.

You should aim to get your images looking the way you want them in this same profile, then when you upload them they shouldn't look any different.

Using 'Save For Web' in Photoshop has the option to use sRGB when saving....its advisable to do so.
This doesn't mean you have to keep your original PSD file in sRGB, in fact its common to work in Adobe RGB(1998) and only save out in sRGB when you're done.

Thats the short version of what I know, Mr Mann is more familiar with the software you've mentioned so I'd go by what he says...but in case he doesn't reply you have have my thoughts above.

Sorry I can't be any more help than that.

Regards.
MrTom.
Click to expand...
 
Without an example image to inspect, I can't be certain, but the previous comments by Steve and MrTom (who, BTW, is not the same person as me, Tom Mann) certainly sound like very likely explanations for the problem you are experiencing.

Specifically, it sounds like you have elected to use a ProFoto as your working color space, and then to convert your PSD file to a JPG, you did a "Save As" instead of doing a "Save For Web (as sRGB)" or some other method to convert your PSD file to sRGB before saving as a JPG.

Because of this, your JPG likely was tagged as being in the ProFoto color space. Most browsers don't have a clue about how to deal with this, so they just display it as if it was an ordinary sRGB file. This will always make a ProFoto or AdobeRGB file look muddy and less saturated when viewed on software (such as a browser) that is not fully ICC compliant.

That being said, **there are** other things that could have a very similar effect. This is precisely why I asked you to post an example image -- so we could establish with certainty that it is just the specific color space problem described above.

If you want to read a bit more about it, here is my answer to a recent, very similar question:
https://www.photoshopgurus.com/foru...-photoshop-post1533699201.html#post1533699201

The main difference between you and this fellow only seems to be he was using Adobe RGB instead of ProFoto RGB. He also had some out-of-gamut issues, which I can't tell if you also have unless you post an example or two.

HTH,

Tom M
 
This is a very simple issue.
I haven't checked out this issue in over a year but when I did, Prophoto wasn't supported by any cameras, printers, and certainly not by any web browsers or image viewers.

A color space is two things.
Think of it as a bucket (size) and a and a quantity (amount)

sRGB is a 1 quart container, the colors represented in sRGB equal 1 quart.
Adobe 98 is a 2 quart container, and the colors represented in Adobe 98 equal 2 quarts.
ProPhoto is a 3 quart container, and the colors represented = 3 quarts

If you shoot sRGB and open the image as Adobe 98 or ProPhoto you still have an sRGB image (1 quart of color) in a 2 or 3 quart container.

Shoot Adobe 98 and use that for print.
Save for web to post to the web and forget ProPhoto exists
 
Hi Tom,

Ok Here are the photos so you can see the problem.

The photo labeled Export hasbeen exported in Tiff format with Lightroom adjustments which I then resizedand converted to jpg to reduce size.

The other photo is a copy of the same Exported tiff photo which I openedin PScc and coverted to sRGB using the Save for Web option and putting a tickin the boxes for Optimised and Embed profile (ProphotoRGB from PScc colorworkspace) and using Bicubic resampling.

You can see that the sRGB photo is darker with more saturated colors.

WhatI want to do is very simple but seems impossible to do, as I describe below.
All I am wanting to do is to be able toedit my RAW photos in Lightroom 5, then use edit in > using PScc to do some final retouches in my Prophotocolor working space, and then to save the final image as an Srgb to put up onwhich ever website it needs to go up on, and to look exactly like the original I was editing in LR5 and PSccwith no color changes.

How do I need to setup LR5 and PScc (some photos of thesetup panels with options selected would be very helpful) and do I need to saveas jpeg or png for best results for viewing on the web.
I just want to be able to put my photos which look good inPScc up on the web without strange color shifts happening in the process.
Will using the Proof setup and selecting maybe the monitorRGB option make a difference?
Also, has notbeing able to synchronise my color settings using Bridge in PScc, andgetting a warning box about having to first launch a qualifying product atleast once before being able to enable suite color management, got anythingto do with my problem.

Thanks forany help with this very frustrating problem.

Frank
 

Attachments

  • Export-4342.jpg
    Export-4342.jpg
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  • IMG_4342-PScc-save-to-web-embed-profile.jpg
    IMG_4342-PScc-save-to-web-embed-profile.jpg
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OP: "...All I want to do is to be able to edit my RAW photos in Lightroom 5, then use edit in > using PScc to do some final retouches in my Prophoto color working space, and then to save the final image as an Srgb to put up onwhich ever website it needs to go up on, and to look exactly like the original I was editing in LR5 and PSccwith no color changes. ..."

That's a very reasonable request. In fact, because of the well known benefits of staying in ProPhoto for as long as possible, what you described is exactly how I work most of the time, so it certainly can be done. The only caveat I should mention is that because sRGB has a vastly smaller gamut than ProPhoto, there is no way the two versions will ever look exactly the same, even if the conversion between color spaces is done properly -- there will always be some differences. Whether or not they are significant, that's your call.

With that one caveat out of the way, the crux of the problem is revealed in these three statements of yours:
(a) "The photo labeled Export has been exported in Tiff format with Lightroom adjustments, which I then resized and converted to jpg to reduce size.

(b) The other photo is a copy of the same Exported tiff photo which I opened in PS CC and converted to sRGB using the "Save for Web" option, and putting a tick in the boxes for "Optimised" and "Embed profile" (ProphotoRGB from PS CC color workspace) and using Bicubic resampling.

(c) You can see that the sRGB photo is darker with more saturated colors."
​

First, because what people see on their screen depends on what software they are using to view your images, because there is a bit of ambiguity in the way you describe them, and because people may not pay attention to file names, to be absolutely unambiguous, I'm going to simply refer to the two images you posted as #1 and #2.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your statement (a), it sounds like you took no special measures to change the color space of this version, #1. So, I checked, and, exactly as expected, it is still in ProPhoto because that was your working color space. Because of this, and because not all browsers and image viewing programs can handle ProPhoto correctly, #1 is likely to look very different on different systems. You obviously don't want that.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but from your next statement, (b), it sounds like in the first part of this statement you think that #2 should be in sRGB, but from the end this statement, you think that that #2 should be in ProPhoto. Obviously, only one of these possibilities can be true. A quick check (say, using Bridge) will show you that your image #2 actually was converted to sRGB. Because of this, it *will* display consistently in almost any image viewing program including pre-2000 legacy programs, web browsers, etc. This will be the way most people see your image (excluding differences in monitors, etc. that are beyond your control).

Your next statement, (c), is, "You can see that the sRGB photo is darker with more saturated colors."

Well, because of the ambiguity of your 2nd statement, (b); because the sRGB version (ie, #2) actually looks lighter (not darker) to me; and, because I can't tell what you are actually seeing on your system, I'm really not sure which of the two images you prefer.

SO:

If you can tell me whether or not you prefer #2 (as viewed on the forum), we can proceed from there.

Also, since you mentioned you have Adobe Bridge on your system, we can do some tests using exactly the same software. So, view the two files that you posted in Bridge, and tell me whether:

(a) they look the same in Bridge, but when viewed as a forum post, you prefer #1; or,

(b) they look the same in Bridge, but when viewed as a forum post, you prefer #2; or,

(b) they look different in Bridge (and tell me which you prefer when viewing them in Bridge).

I'll wait to hear from you before proceeding.

Cheers,

Tom

PS - While I'm at it, let me respond to your questions about possibly using the Proof Tool, using MonitorRGB (for something - what?), and synchronizing color space settings between different Adobe products. The answer is simple: Don't worry about, or activate any of these options / procedures. At this point, they will only muddy the waters.
 
Thanks fordetailed reply Tom,
You are correct #1 I left in prophoto color space because if I converted it to Srgb itwould have looked identical to #2.
Photo #2 does look best on your website and even looks a little sharper than viewing itin my IE browser ( does the forum webmaster add a little extra sharpening tothe photos?) but thats because it is in the web color space of Srgb.
In Bridgehowever #2 looks slightly lighter to my prefered original #1.
I know I said #2 looked darker in my previous post and now I cant remember why except ifyou compare the two images how they appear on the forum.
just to answer the questions you asked
If you cantell me whether or not you prefer #2 (as viewed on the forum), we can proceedfrom there.
yes I prefer #2

Also, since you mentioned you have Adobe Bridge on your system, we can do sometests using exactly the same software. So, view the two files that you postedin Bridge, and tell me whether:

(a) they look the same in Bridge, but when viewed as a forum post, you prefer#1; or,
In Bridge #2 looksslightly lightly and I prefer #2 on the forum

(b) they look the same in Bridge, but when viewed as a forum post, you prefer#2; or,
As above

(b) they look different in Bridge (and tell me which you prefer when viewingthem in Bridge).

In Bridge #2 looks slightly lightly and I prefer #1 in Bridge

Thanks for your help Tom,

Frank
 
Last edited:
I'll get a chance to respond fully in a few hours. But, in the interim, I'll just comment that I think you answered your own question: You prefer the colors of version #2, so just continue to do what you did to produce that version: Work in ProFoto till the last possible minute, and then do a "Save For Web" with all the appropriate boxes checked, especially, the "convert to sRGB" and "embed profile".

Tom
 
BTW, as you pointed out, compared to the huge difference between #1 and #2 when viewed using software that isn't color-managed, there is a very slight difference between the two versions even when you view them in a truly ICC-compliant (aka, "color managed") application like "Bridge", You also said that you slightly prefer #1 over #2 when comparing them in Bridge.

On the surface, one might think that they should look identical in "Bridge" since it is fully color-managed. There are at least three reasons why they don't look quite identical:

1. Image #1 is less processed than Image #2. Every time you do a color space conversion, you lose information -- mostly color, but a bit of luminosity info, as well.

2. If your monitor and video system is capable of displaying colors even slightly beyond sRGB, you will start to see those colors in #1, whereas you can't possibly see them in #2 because they are completely gone since you did an explicit conversion to sRGB to generate #2.

3. If you look at the file sizes, you see that the size of #2 is about half the size of #1. You can also see that #2 is a bit more blurry than #1. This is most likely because you used more JPG compression (ie, a lower "quality" setting) for #2.

HTH,

Tom M
 
Hi Steve,

You have the best advice so far.

I noticed though, that if I save this web page as a complete webpage and then open up photo #2 I posted up with an embedded profile of Srgb, it now no longer has an embedded profile. Additionally, the image looks sharper and it is only 34kb compared to 130kb for the original one I put up.

Do you have an explanation for this as it is all a little confusing now.

thanks,

Franck
 
Hi Steve,

The only problem is that when I open up a raw photo in Lightroom it opens bydefault in ProPhoto rgb and I believethere is no way of changing this to Adobe RGB.
If I then need to do additional editing inPScc the advice has been to work in a consistent color space which is why mycolor space in PScc is set to Prophoto. However I sometimes need to put theseimages on the web. So what is the best workflow and settings I should be using?
How do Ineed to set up Lightroom 5 and PScc for Web output so that when viewing theimages on the Web they look as good as how you see them in LR and PS.

What would be the best settings a high end pro would use and his workflow toachieve maximum image quality?

It's a simple question but I am finding it very difficult to get straightsimple answer.

I like to shoot in RAW with my 5D mk2 so I need to adjust these images in LRand PS. What would be the best settings a high end pro would use and hisworkflow to achieve maximum image quality?


I will be very grateful for any help with this question.

thanks,

Franck

 
Thanks for the acknowledgement Franck.

To your first question I would think deleting the metadata is a reason the file size is smaller.
I assume converting from Prophoto to sRGB is also a factor.

I'm not a Lightroom user but I assume Lightroom opens RAW files the same as Photoshop does, in Adobe Camera Raw.
If that's the case, on the very bottom of of the image in ACR you'll see the current image settings Prophoto RGB; 8bit; XXXX by XXXX (XX MP); XXX ppi Click on that and and change your settings.
Like I said I don't use Lightroom so if that doesn't work I don't know.

Also I can't comment on your other Lightroom questions.

As far as camera settings and workflow I can only tell you what I do.
I also shoot Raw, and use Adobe RGB, the largest color space available on our cameras, and open them in ACR.

When I open the image in Photoshop I stay in Adobe RGB then I save as a PSD.
When It comes to output I use Adobe RGB when printing to my printer and sRGB when posting on the web or places like Walmart.
CMYK is used by commercial printers and comes in many flavors, consult the company for the right settings.

Steve



 
Thanks Steve,

What really puzzels me is photo #2 I posted up with an embedded profile of Srgb, if you check it now no longer has an embedded profile, do you know why?

Thanks,

Frank
 
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