Print master can't be better than Photoshop!!!! What gives I'm at my wits end! P

[tillthen]

I have Elements 4.0. I open up a 8meg, jpeg that is 35x45 inches (resolution = 72). I reduce image size in photoshop and all detail is lost as it is super blurred. (When I reduce the image I drag it on to a page that has 72 res as well.

I open the same jpg, in an ancient version of printmaster, and I can resize with the corner arrow and not loose any detail when I go down to 2.75x (whatever the other dimen. is)!!!

I even triead dragging the resized crisp image from Printmaster to Photoshop, only to have the crisp item turn to blurr.

How is it that this is so????




Friday I spent 4 hours on the phone with an "adobe tech Expert". Who couldn't get Elements 4.0 to load on her syswtem, but kept reading from a book to me, and in the end told me that Her PS was reducing fine, so mine should be fine. Blah, blah, blah. She told me to load it on another computer and if it didn't reduce that I was the program.

So today I loaded it onto another system and sure enough it did the same thing. Seeing as I need to redo a 24 page wedding album by Mon a.m. I went out and purchased 5.0.

And low and behold, it did the same. So after playing around with it here is what I've come up with....

Please advise me if this is the best way.

1) I took my original photo (35x45) and increased the resolution from 72 to 600, and scaled it done to the size I needed. In this case 3x4.

2) I the created my 10x10 page and set it's resolution to 600. This printed a picture with no blur.

3) When I increased the resolution of both to 1000, it looked fine on the screen but when I printed it. It looked like the printer was throwing too much ink to the paper.

I don't know if this would also occur when I take the files to my photo lab?????

My delima is How do I keep my background photos which have great print resolution at 72 dpi, and then drop my 3'inch images on top that have 600 dpi???

How come my 35x45 photos can be perfect at 72 dpi, but when I reduce then to 3x5's I have to increase my resolution??? It seems backwards

 

[MindBender]

Please advise me if this is the best way.

Wow... uhh... I just read that a bunch of times... and I'm still a little shaky on what you're trying to do and what exactly it is you're actually doing... but I'll give it a shot to see if I can help. Bear in mind that I haven't used Elements much but the basics of the process shouldn't be much different.

Let's start at the end in hopes of clarifying something about resolution, an arguably complex topic.

How come my 35x45 photos can be perfect at 72 dpi, but when I reduce then to 3x5's I have to increase my resolution??? It seems backwards

Well... think about this. Resolution in this case is measured in DPI (dots per inch). So if you don't change the total number of pixels (eg, reduce the quality, which we don't want to do if possible) and you reduce the inches... the number of dots per inch will necessarily increase. So think of it as a balance scale. As one goes up the other goes down. As one goes down, the other goes up... they always balance out. The trick is to start as big as possible with as many pixels as you can get... then reduce to the size and resolution you want.

My delima is How do I keep my background photos which have great print resolution at 72 dpi, and then drop my 3'inch images on top that have 600 dpi???

First off... I can't think of many applications that you'd need 600DPI for... there is a good chance you're actually putting the DPI up too high. Some desktop style printers will just ignore any DPI larger than they can handle... but some will try to send the data to print and it will come out mucky and blurred together. I don't know how you're printing (inkjet, laser, dye sublimation, offset press, etc.) so it's hard to really nail down the specifics of the document. If this is going to go to a service bureau... then you need to call them and ask them what format and resolution the files should be in. They are the only ones that know about the actual printing devices they're using so they are the ones that can answer that question. If you're using a desktop printer like say a color inkjet... don't put the resolution over 300DPI, it's pointless. Desktop inkjet printers have a lot of marketing on their boxes... but the truth is that most of these printers can't do much better than 200-300 actual DPI... and just fake the rest with bizarre interpolation methods. Make sure you're working RGB mode (although, I don't think elements can do other modes, so this might not matter in this case). Also make sure that if you're working in inches, that the DPI of both documents are the same. So if you plan on making a layout that's 10 inches by 10 inches at 300DPI, and you want to put 3 - 3inch pictures across it, those pictures need a width of 3 inches at 300DPI.

I don't know if this would also occur when I take the files to my photo lab?????

All kinds of crazy can happen between you taking a picture and them printing it. You need to talk to them about what file types and resolution they're expecting and any particulars that they might be in need of.

1) I took my original photo (35x45) and increased the resolution from 72 to 600, and scaled it done to the size I needed. In this case 3x4.

Not sure exactly what happened when you scaled... if you scaled without changing the pixel data the image would only be 8.4 inches at 600 DPI... so you must be doing what's called "resampling" or changing the actual amount of pixels. When you change resolution without "resampling" all you're doing is redefining how the document prints. You aren't actually making permanent, possibly damaging, changes to the document. When you "resample" you actually change the pixel data of the document... in this case you're permanently deleting pixels. Because this is a permanent change, you don't want to do this until you're absolutely sure... and usually working on a copy of your original document is the best idea in case something goes wrong. The short version is that you can change resolution all day without damaging your file as long as you don't "resample" the image.

2) I the created my 10x10 page and set it's resolution to 600. This printed a picture with no blur.

Not sure what you're doing here... but I'm going to assume that you created a document with layout objects on it like text and frames or whatever. Since they were created at the resolution and weren't scaled or resampled... they probably printed better because of it... although 600DPI is probably still a little high for what you're doing... but I'm just guessing at this point without knowing what device you're using to print.

3) When I increased the resolution of both to 1000, it looked fine on the screen but when I printed it. It looked like the printer was throwing too much ink to the paper.

There isn't a desktop printing device that I know of that would need 1000DPI to print a photograph.

Here's the basic steps for making what I think you're making.

1. Make your layout page at the specific print resolution you'll be using ( generally 300 DPI is more than enough ). Make sure you're using a standard color profile like sRGB... I don't know if this is an option in Elements but if you have the ability to tag a document with color profiles, you should always be working in a standard space like sRGB or Adobe RGB 1998. Trust me on this.

2. Resize your images to the resolution you want. Then if they aren't the size you want, resample the images until they're exactly the size you want. Once you go down, don't go back up. If you make it too small... start with the original version and scale down again. You can always take away pixels by scaling down... but once they're gone you can't ever get them back by scaling up.

3. Take the entire document and save a copy as a flattened file. eg... no layers or effects or anything... just a flat document at the resolution you want to print with high quality (no save for web jpegs or anything).

4. Use this flattened document to send the print job. When you send the print, make sure you check out any "advanced" options in your print dialog... you want to look for things like ICM profiles. Those are what let the color come through correctly. Make sure you have the print settings set to fine quality so that it's not dumbing down the resolution in the printing process.

5. Choose good paper. Printers these days can make some very nice quality prints with plain old copy paper... but if you really want a photograph to shine... you need good paper. On the screen you have lots of light shining through to make colors look good. On paper... all the light comes from being reflected off the page. Good paper will also not let the inks bleed much before they dry... which means better quality images and brighter colors. Do a test print the first couple times on copy paper to make sure you've got the process down... then switch to what's called a "coated stock"... or "photo paper". Stick with the same brand of ink and paper that came with the printer for best results. Budget off brand inks will destroy modern printers (no refills... just buy new ink... refill kits will damage your hardware.). There are some good quality papers made by third party manufacturers... but in the case of desktop printers, I spend the extra 5% price tag and just pony up with the good stuff. The reason is this... if epson made the printer... and the paper... they know how that printer will react with that paper and the results will be more predictable. This is true of whatever brand you choose... just make sure the printer, ink, and paper brands match... and you have one less thing to worry about.

I hope that helps get things straight for you. Give that a shot and see what happens. If you are still having problems... list them specifically so we can give you specific answers.

Good luck and welcome to PSG.

 

[tillthen]

Okay, let me see if I got what this all boils down to.

1) I cannot flatten 600 ppi pics on a 72 ppi canvas. All images in the collage have to be at the same resolution. Am I correct?

2) Scratch 600 and just use 300 ppi

3) Since all of my photos are at 72 ppi when I drop them on the the canvas that is 300 ppi I should expect them to shrink, because of the difference in resolution

4) Unless I resample, when I drag a shrunken image from page to another it will always go back to it's original dimiensions

5) There is no way to shrink those roughly 35x45's that are at 72 ppi, to 3 inch photos at the same 72 ppi, without the picture blurring out.

Do I have it all understood?

I really do appreciate all the help.

 

[MindBender]

1) I cannot flatten 600 ppi pics on a 72 ppi canvas. All images in the collage have to be at the same resolution. Am I correct?

They should be the same resolution. Here's the thing. If you deal with pixels it doesn't matter... you can ignore the resolution. So if you have a 10inch by 10inch design at 300DPI you will have a 3000pixel by 3000pixel image. If you want to have 3 images across and 3 images down... the other images need to be roughly 3inches by 3inches at 300DPI. This is a 900pixel by 900pixel image. This, as I said was a 3x3@300dpi image... it's also a 12.5x12.5@72dpi image... it's also a 1.5x1.5@600dpi image. All of those are still just 900pixel images. Complex, I know. It can be a major headache when you're getting started (and continue to be a big headache later on heh).

Here is what I would do. Figure out what final print resolution you want. In this case probably 300DPI. Set the document to that resolution and the inches that you want (in this case 10 x 10). Now... open one of the pictures. Using the movie tool (the black arrow in the tool bars), drag the image from the opened image into the 10 x 10 layout document. Use the free-transform tool to scale the image down to the size that you want it to be visually. Since this document is already 300DPI... you don' t have to worry about the resolution... it will just happen because the image is placed in the document. You will be resamping at this point, but that's okay since you will only do this one and you are working on a copy so you aren't harming the original document.

2) Scratch 600 and just use 300 ppi

You really just need to match the file settings to the intended output. For the most part a desktop inkjet won't really use any of the image data above 300DPI. Every printer is different... but that's a good rule of thumb. Of course, laser printers and dye sublimation printers are a different story... but if you just have an off the shelf epson, HP or whatever inkjet printer... they aren't going to use much more detail than that generally.

3) Since all of my photos are at 72 ppi when I drop them on the the canvas that is 300 ppi I should expect them to shrink, because of the difference in resolution

Actually... they aren't going to do anything... since photoshop deals with pixels until it outputs... nothing should change. If you were to print them... they would print different... but as for when you're working on the screen... it won't change them. Like I said before... try thinking in pixels... it will make things easier.

4) Unless I resample, when I drag a shrunken image from page to another it will always go back to it's original dimiensions

Pixels don't change until you change them. Only the print dimensions change... pixels are pixels are pixels. The easiest way to deal with this is to just set the print size and resolution once... then forget about it... drag the files into that set document and size as needed.

5) There is no way to shrink those roughly 35x45's that are at 72 ppi, to 3 inch photos at the same 72 ppi, without the picture blurring out.

You should be able to downsample that image without problem. Usually when you downsample it isn't an issue... it's when you enlarge things that you have problems. I'm not sure what issue you had with it before... but I'm guessing it's something to do with the process you used. Try the process that I outlined in this post and see if it works better for you. Don't make it any harder on yourself than you need to.