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Like, oh wow, "Reality"


gare

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Hi Everyone?

Welles? comment about the paint in my post over on the 3D thread prompted a great deal of thought on my part, so I?m opening a new area and welcome everybody?s input.

I guess the proper, or a more proper, title for this post should be ?Reality Versus Artistic Intent?. As an audience, we have an almost instinctive attraction towards dimensional stuff?a flat piece of paper isn?t as appealing to look at as a curled or crumpled. but ?reality? is still only a quality one discovers in Art, and no more the end-product of expression than any other technique.

Whenever I sit down to design something, I usually have an idea, inspiration, or whatever you want to call it. As a fellow victim of human frailty, however, I occasionally stray into creating a display of artistic technique, without proper regard to what it is I?m trying to communicate. The paint can illustration is kind of an example??what was I trying to say? Answer: not much?I was just working on a technique to better simulate fluid motion, and that technique will probably be well-applied to a different composition once I figure out what to say artistically.

Which leads me to artistic vision, a ponderous phrase, fer sure. We must all see something before we can create something, and this vision can come from the heart, the head, the soul, the imagination...they?re all valid starting places. The audience, your audience, reacts to different qualities of art, the vehicle, if you will, before arriving at the artistic message contained within, usually. Here?s an example: the rocking horse picture, below, is not an awfully photorealistic image, yet it has enough realistic qualities to get a childlike feeling across (I often explore my own childhood in my art). Perspective and hading are there, however, the image has a plastic sheen to it. But I don?t mind this?if I needed photorealism to convey the artistic idea here, I would have modeled and rendered the scene instead of drawing it in Xara. I?m not letting technique get in the way of the colors used, the camera angle, and so on. Same deal with the paint scene: I could go back and create sploshes around the paint can rim and make the splat on the floor more asymmetric, but my main intent was to create a surrealistic scene...a phantom pouring the paint and creating havoc in an orderly setting (and most of all; working on a study of how things pour :)...the details in the scene might be inadequate to immerse the audience in the realism captured moment, but I was paying more attention to atmosphere, lighting, and other supporting elements, and didn?t feel as though the scene needs more fine details to carry off the overall composition.

I?m not being defensive; I agree with Welles that more detail would help the scene, but my point is that I was trying to appeal to the audience?s heart and not necessarily their heads.

Alvy Smith, founder of PIXAR and much-accredited with discovering the alpha channel, originally started developing 3D animation as a visual guide to medical imaging (so much for that lofty and noble goal with the release of ?Toy Story?!) He stated that the true purpose of dimensional imaging was to explain something using a modality that?s more comprehensive in scope that other vehicles. Huh? Okay, they say that a picture is worth a thousand words (as an author, I have to add that it?d have to be a really good picture!), and the logical corollary is that 3D helps get the artistic or medical idea across better, often, than 2D. But that doesn?t make 3D as a vehicle necessarily better than 2d or even the printed or spoken word. It?s just a method of expression, and this method I?ve seen used and abused just like the privilege of Free Press suffers in the wrong hands.

I?ll continue to work on my craft, for it is a life-long pursuit, and I welcome input, as this is what this forum is for. Thanks for your time reading this, and I?d very much like to know your feelings this subject!

My Best,
 
Good grief! I never intended to stimulate philosophical discussion of artistic intent, Gary. I did, however, enjoy your perspective and thoughtfulness.

My response to your 3D pour graphic was that it was a fun, highly skilled image but the pour qualities were pretty far away from real. For me, the impact of the 3D imagery was diminished somewhat as a result. I am a believer that when 3D images are intended to represent a dynamic aspect of reality with which the audience can be expected to be familiar, the physics of the action should be fairly represented for versimilitude, even though the created stylization is still obviously not 'real' but created for aesthetic appeal.

My reaction was simply based on the physics of poured substances, not taking into account the larger artistic context. In 45 years of varied construction/arts/and building experiences I have worked with thousands of diffferent loosely described 'liquids.' From 'pour grade' polysulfides used in boat building, through concentrated acids and bases, to substances so much thinner than water that they are made to displace water in solids, I've had to learn to deal with them. Along the way a keen appreciation of the pour, spill, and splatter qualities was developed for safety sake.

Without thinking, I applied real world observations of pouring substances in cirtical analysis of your image. Sorry about that.
:(
 
Hiya,Welles

Hey, your studied and educated observations are/were exactly what I need! Thank you! I cannot work in a vacuum (too hard to breathe!)

Anybody else care to share opinions/feelings on 3D?

My Best,

Gare
 
[confused] Boy, I'm waaaaay outta my league in this...I will just say I understand about when an image is needed to be 3d or photorealistic = because the project style requires it, or you just want it to be that way....but unless the image has to be technically accurate this way I find I just go with what I feel about what an image conveys overall...if it captures something well then I don't get focused on the details. I don't know if I make sense. \:]

I enjoy the rocking horse pic! ;)
---Crow
 
far from me to say anything about your work ( still learning the pen tool) but i think 3D is over rated. just because we have the ability to create it doesnt mean its better. i mean i would watch the 1980 transformers movie over the current CGI version of today in a heart beat. i also think that so many works of art have been done in 2d that i cant see how 3D could improve them. Mona Lisa, The Scream, The last supper to name a few are those any less wonderful becuase they are 2D. the images you made were outstanding and far beyond my ablity but there has to be something said for a good old fasion rocking horse painted on canvase
 
3D, or not 3D...that is the question... :)

Modeling and rendering, or for that matter, photography, are simply forms of media...a "wrapper" within which you dedliver your ideas.

I didn't go to Computer Art School (did anyone? :) ...I just went to Art School, and I was already familiar with lighting and perspective when I discovered my first modeling program for a computer.

Let's hear it for DaVinci, Rubens, Degas, Magritte, and all them others!

My Best,

Gare
 
I look at 3d as another tool -- one that I'm finding I enjoy VERY MUCH. My background is as a self-taught painter. I have no formal art education. I'm a perpetual "student" of all I can explore with. :D I still like to paint on canvas, draw, etc. just as much after discovering digital media, I've just added digital 2d/3d to my tools.

Perhaps it's very different across the country here and abroad in regards to how others view digital art??? I still find many people don't take digital art seriously. It's like if it isn't put onto canvas or paper or sculpted in wood, metal, stone, etc. then many feel it doesn't have the value of a piece done in "traditional" (whatever the heck that is) media.

Why is that? Where do people get the idea that you just push a button and the computer does it all? \:] If only they knew the thought and skill and effort going into these digital expressions they might think differently about them.........
So, odd as it may seem, frequently I find that I need to actually take my digital media images and physically "paint" them onto a canvas for people to accept it as "creative."
---Crow
 
Hiya, Crow!

Crow,

Philosophically, I think I'm in the same boat as you.

I also hate to call the medium "3D" (funny how we accept this, though, on TalkGraphics!); modeling and rendering are as complicated as photography---more so, because you have to create the scene's contents before you "photograph" it.

Disappointingly, modeling has become fragmented in its attraction, and a lot of the "uninitiated" audience only gets to see:
-Chrome balls floating in space
-Conan-type, sword-wielding characters
-Stock people and poses from Poser
-Monsters, and
-Woman with ponderously large breasts...

...and don't get to see all the hard work, inspiration, and genuine artistic homages others create, because we're not in the limelight.

I don't/can't paint, Crow, and I envy your talent! I'm a pencil kinda guy, better at design than technique, and the PC has become my creative prosthesis,as I actually teach in my books. It's so dang frustrating to want to express yourself artistically, and computer apps are sort of a "skill jump-start", IMO. "Talent"? you can't teach that; it either comes with your ID, or it doesn't, but self-expression+skill can = a very eye-pleasing outcome. I dwell in Painter a lot, because it gives me cyber-tools to "paint"...again, I'm a pencil guy, and don't know which end of a paint brush to blow into. And sculpting, physically? Ferget it! But in Maya and other modeling apps, I can envision stuff in 3D. Too bad I can't afford time on a laser lathe...then I could output DXF files to the physical world! ;)

But back to your observation: yep, agreed, "3D" is just a method of expression, and not the content. I concentrated on photorealism back in college, and can pretty accurately reproduce people and objects in pen and ink style. My personal, on-going goal, is to bring at least one of my artistic styles to the output of modeling apps.

If I don't, I might as well join the cookie-cutter thematic trends that seem more reflexive than inspired.

My Best,

Gare
 
I happen to love the qualities of 3D imaging. Actually I love computer assisted imaging in general. I'm aware that, when I sit at my computer and twiddle my fingers on keyboard and mouse, I'm actually standing on the shoulders of literally millions of people, many of whom were brilliant minds. I get to twiddle and go 'oh wow....pause...twiddle...oh wow...pause...twiddle Oh Wow! and on and on...

It's the twiddle and wow factor of the computer tool set which make it so much fun. That and time. I never looked at a computer until I was in my 50's. Until then I did 'real art.' Then I picked up a mouse and discovered my inner nerd. I've never looked back, nor have I done 'traditional media' work since.

I love being able to try out the aesthetic balance of hundreds of possibilities prior to settling on one particular set of them. I love not having to abuse my bod with an endless litany of toxic materials. The dust, the dirt, the grime...all gone. Great! I paid my dues...

One of the biggest attractions of the computer arts lies in the realm of time. If I spend a week on a static image, I expect it to be exceptional. A day's focussed attention should yield a considerable effort. Contrast that with spending years on a single sculpture, or months on a painting. It ends up that the same sense of creative satisfaction can be had in smaller intervals. Oh wow. The difference is in the residuals of that sense of accomplishment. The momentary peak can be as high with both varieties of work but the long term investment yields a longer sense of staisfacton. In a sense, with computers you can get many more WOWs but not nearly the AAAAHHHs, if you get my drift.

To give you an idea of the extremes of this time issue here are four pieces of work, three traditional media and one computer piece. This first piece took two years of work spread out over a 17 year period. Yes, it could have been done faster, once the original evolved of course but it was done entirely by hand and hand tools, even the steel work. It's a sculpture based loosely on the 'beat their swords into plowshares' theme. The top of the steel sculpture on the stand is 54" high and the steel sculpture is 32" long. The bluing was strictly heat treatment and the lettering and designs are gold filled etchings.

Next is an acrylic painting on masonite in an Osage orange (wood) frame. The size is 39" x 50". You can't begin to see the detail but there are visual puns in heiroglyphics and all kinds of stupid gags. It took five months to produce, including the research and is entitled Pfui, the Ancient Egyptian God of Derision.

Here's an emboridery in a sculpted frame. It is 18" in the widest diameter, solid stitching in a 3 1/4" high sculpted birds-eye maple frame. This was a six month project. I donated it to my town of Santa Cruz, CA to be the official gift to our sister city of Aleushta, Crimea, where it resides in the local museum. I've never seen it in situ, nor expect to.

Finally, here's a huge image so be warned (17" x 22" and about 500k). It's a computer piece done for two women who share the same birthday. While it only took a few days, I can afford to produce something which is original and really only for two people with a few other onlookers. I never could do anything like that without the computer. I love it!
 
Ahhh...and there's something else I find others frequently seem to find *important* in their estimating the value of a creation....."how long did that take you to do?" ;) If you answer that it took many weeks or months or years there is some sort of valiadation that it must be a serious creative work.....if you tell them it took you a day or two, a week, or just a few moments then the value of the creation is diminished in their eyes. It's something I've come across more often than I would like.....and from other *artists.* [confused]

I can paint rather fast -- comes from just doing so much of it I suppose since I was about 6 yrs old (mom gave me some oils and I really made a huge mess ;) )...the difference in the time it takes for me to finish a detailed digital piece now and what it would take for me to actually paint it to canvas is close to the same -- I can reproduce on canvas anything, no matter how detailed done digitally, in less than a week (average is about 3-4 days) for something the size of approx. 24" x 36" . So with digital artwork, it isn't really about saving any time for me...and what "time" would that be anyway? \:] For me the "time" involved that's greatest is the ideas stage -- I may be forming the artwork in my mind for months or days or even years.....then paint it in a day or so, it just comes together like that.

I wonder at times, when it comes to selling artworks, what is the best "painting" method when it seems the people of this region want a physical creation to hang on the wall somewhere. So I still paint partly for that reason also....

As far as the idea goes of making multiple copies of my work easier by using digital media, I don't know if making prints off an imaged painted canvas or watercolor is any different than just making prints from digitally created works in the beginning...just different steps involved. It doesn't seem to me that it ought to be different = the value of the final result. [confused] It's my creation no matter what I used to make it with. It's not the media that really matters, it's the results in the end and ever more ideas that inspires me onward.

It's not the time it took to make the creation that's of any importance to me as to whether I enjoy or value it more or less than any other. Only the situation of a "deadline" for a piece to be completed ever comes into play then for the consideration about "time."

When I look at my own or other's works it's just what I feel when I see the artwork that's interesting to me, not really important what they used to make it with.
Personally, I love cave paintings! I might feel more at home if my computer was hewn outta rock I guess. ;) This makes me want to go out and paint something on a wall somewhere........... :bustagut:
 
I'm not sure if I can contribute to this interesting discussion but I will give you my view on a couple of things.

Tecnique vs art
Some people seem to think of art and techinque/photo-realism as opposites. Two different players in the world of expression and communication. I don't really see it that way. On the contrary, without the right technique you will be limited in the way you can create "art". And tecnique without meaning is also pretty pointless.

3D??
What do we mean with 3D images? The last supper is one of the best examples of 3D and the use of perspective to add interest in an image. It's done on a canvas but it's still very much 3D. I don't really care if you use a computer, a pen or whatever just as long as the results "speaks" to me (technically or as art).

But I think that there might be a danger in using computers to create art. It's quite easy to render a perfect scene with the use of a computer but it doesn't mean that anyone can create a new "The last supper". To paint a "3D" scene on canvas will take longer, giving you the time to reflect on every little detail. You will automatically put more of yourself into the end-result. You will have the time to reflect on your feeling for the subject etc...


/Moltas
 
I think---

Thanks, All, for your invaluable input! I think we all can agree that:

1.) There's a distinction between the medium of modeling, and creating something that speaks to us dimensionally. The two modalities are not necessarily mutually exclusive, however.

2.) There's no substitute for inspiration. Having technical skills will win you a technical award (which is fine), but not an award for "Deepest Thought" ;)

Additionally, I feel that the designers who are leveraging the power of the personal computer the most these days, have spent time getting their hands dirty in the physical, analog world of Art, either through self-taught experience (usually the most fertile!), or through schooling.

But that doesn't disclude the ambitious, self-expressive individual who wants to use the computer as a vehicle, and doesn't necessarily have the experience in the media of paint, pen & ink, whatever.

Back to modeling for a moment...
It's frequently used-and abused-but it's just a medium, very akin to photography, which did't gain acceptance as a "true" art form until the 1950s.

Here's to a New Millenium of tolerance and open-eyedness!

My Best,

Gary


P.S.-Welles; I like your sculpting :righton:
 

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