Specific Let's talk about Free Edit Forum errors!

[JeffK]

Guys, lets do our best!

This is getting to be a standard here in this forum.

I have decided that I will continue to point out mistakes when I see them even though some of you think me a bully. I won't mention any names I will just post images of the errors I see. You can't get better if you don't have your errors pointed out.

All you members who are adding "likes" to these works are just contributing to the problem! You may think you are encouraging them, but you are just reinforcing their ego's making them think their work is fine since someone added a like or a nice comment.

These members can not get better if they don't think their work needs improvement!

It's plain silly if you're going to target one particular image and not mention any names when it's quite clear who's image it is. And if the point is to make that particular member better at their work, and considering you're providing detailed critique of only their work, then it's just as effective to connect privately - or as I mentioned in an earlier conversation, I've always been taught to praise publicly and criticize privately.

Rather than create any acrimony, it gives the member a chance to response to the critique, make changes, and repost detailing the corrections.

BTW - the OP had rejected that image. So again, if the intent at that point is to critique, instruct, and correct, then my opinion is to do it privately.

I do appreciate all critique especially if it is done fairly and equitably.

 

[IamSam]

It's plain silly if you're going to target one particular image and not mention any names when it's quite clear who's image it is.

I targeted two posted edits in that thread.

And if the point is to make that particular member better at their work, and considering you're providing detailed critique of only their work

The Free Edit Forum is not a discussion forum. No critique or criticisms are being offered, only the pointing out of errors. If you desire critiques, then you need to ask for one in the appropriate forum.

I've always been taught to praise publicly and criticize privately.

I realize you may have been taught this and it may be applicable in certain circumstances, but it's not how this forum works.

Despite what any might think, this forum is a TEACHING FORUM first and foremost! If any member chooses to post work in the open forum that needs corrections, then any observations and subsequent help will also be done in the open forum! This way, all members can benefit from the input. If it's done in private, then only one person profits from any help provided. This may contradict what you may believe, but the only other choice is to not post works if you don't want any errors pointed out.

it gives the member a chance to response to the critique, make changes, and repost detailing the corrections.

Members are free and encouraged to take any questions they might have to the General Ps Board. If any errors are pointed out in a work that has been posted to the open forum, then please ask for help in the Gen Ps Board. Again, by doing so, all members gain form the experience.

 

[IamSam]

The Free Edit Forum has long been plagued by sub-standard work that affected the overall reputation of the forum. It was decided then that the errors could either be pointed out or deleted. Most staff did not want to be labeled, so they chose to delete the posts. I on the other hand believe that you can't improve unless you know that you need some improvement, so I risked being the "BAD" guy! I'm really tired of the fight.

So my question is, what would you prefer, deleting sub-standard work or pointing out obvious flaws in an edit and hoping the member will seek out help?

 

[[ iLLuSioN ]]

Personally, I have never seen it as an "attack" on a person when errors are publicly pointed out, but always only as criticism (pointing out errors without explaining how to fix them technically IS criticism!)

It is understandable that the operator tries to increase the quality of the posts/results. It remains to be seen whether a ban on discussion is beneficial.

Personally, I usually only invest a few minutes per image in the free request forum. Whether the result is perfect then plays a subordinate role (you get what you are willing to pay for). And what you get will not be corrected. I'll take note if someone complains about my picture - but nothing more (because I know that I could do better if I invested more time).

In my opinion, expecting perfect results in a free request forum is fundamentally wrong (correspondingly, references to errors are also superfluous if you don't correct them yourself)

 

[IamSam]

It remains to be seen whether a ban on discussion is beneficial.

There is no BAN on discussion.......this has never changed...............the problem is that I have been responsible for letting that forum go. Here's the original rule on the free edit forum.........it's for free edits only! Do the edit or don't! Requestors are not allowed to ask for a free edit and directions on how to do it! If they want help in doing the edit for themselves, it needs to be in the Gen Ps Board!
Any comments or discussions by the members on another members work needs to be placed in the appropriate forum which is the General Ps Board. The fee edit forum was meant to simulate a client and designer situation/interaction. The OP can ask for changes, but any discussion on the edits was always meant to be taken to the Gen Ps Board! Also, this has to do with internet searches................those seeking help are directed to the Gen Ps Board and not to the free edit forum. When searching for help, the free edit forum usually is not listed.

Personally, I usually only invest a few minutes per image in the free request forum. Whether the result is perfect then plays a subordinate role (you get what you are willing to pay for). And what you get will not be corrected. I'll take note if someone complains about my picture - but nothing more (because I know that I could do better if I invested more time).

I totally agree. But your skill level allows you this convenience. Your fast work is almost always outstanding!

In my opinion, expecting perfect results in a free request forum is fundamentally wrong

By the same token, doing FREE EDITS at all is fundamentally wrong!
No one, including myself, has any expectation of perfection. None of us do perfect work. I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect, I want them to improve and get better!

There is a whole other discussion about what members asking for free edits expect! Their expectations are higher than you think. Trust me, I hear about it all the time! If you guys knew half of what's being said..............you would not do free edits at all!

 

[Argos]

I am with Sam in this, I can understand the point Jeff made about doing it privately also, I did both in the past depending on the situation, I usually did it on the post so who did the job and other members on the forum can see it and learn as well. And I did it privately occasionally, if I see an excellent job with a little mistake that is clear the member didn't see it or forgot, but you know he can fix it easily.

I'm always thankful to the people spotting my mistakes or give me criticism. It has helped me to improve and learn new techniques just to fix that mistake or awful job XD.

I used to look at all the member's work in detail, but now that I have less time I have to admit I dont do it anymore, so I dont give any feedback, and maybe I give likes that I shouldn't ^^

I shouldn't give my opinions on a post with so much text because I'm sure I only understood 50% of the discussion, but I dont see a problem with spotting mistakes, it helps the op, the person who did the mistake or didn't see it (and now can try to fix it), and as I said can help other members aswell.

As always sorry for my English and cheers! XD

 

[Rich54]

I'm generally in favor of having errors pointed out and having criticisms of my (or anybody's) work posted publicly.

The Free Edit Forum has long been plagued by sub-standard work that affected the overall reputation of the forum.

I'm a little confused by this statement. In the official rules of the Free Request forum (Guidelines for Filling Requests), the very first line says, "...these requests provide an opportunity to practice your Photoshop abilities, feel free to try them at any skill level." So, if all skill levels are invited, there will statistically be a certain percentage of submissions that might be considered sub-standard. It's not clear to me which policy takes priority: inviting all skill levels to participate, or maintaining a certain threshold of excellence in the posted edits.

There is a whole other discussion about what members asking for free edits expect! Their expectations are higher than you think. Trust me, I hear about it all the time! If you guys knew half of what's being said..............you would not do free edits at all!

The idea that a significant number of people apparently complain about free(!) work is fascinating. I'd love to know more.

 

[IamSam]

I'm a little confused by this statement. ...............So, if all skill levels are invited, there will statistically be a certain percentage of submissions that might be considered sub-standard. It's not clear to me which policy takes priority: inviting all skill levels to participate, or maintaining a certain threshold of excellence in the posted edits.

This issue still exists today but it was addressed by PSG staff back when the forum was much more active and we had many first time Ps users trying their hand, quite dreadfully, at free edits. One problem was that the OP's were not willing to tell these members that their work was........less than desirable, and sometimes even giving them likes or gentle compliments as to not hurt any feelings, but would turn around and complain to staff in PM's. We also had other forum members who were adding likes as a form of encouragement. This was only false reinforcement in the eyes of the members and their poor edits.

We had many complaints from both the free edit requestors and our core group of members at the time concerning the questionable edits. There were some expressed concerns for the reputation of the forum and how it was being perceived. We do after all have some expectation of pride and standards in our forum and we try to promote excellence in our members. We were also trying to steer said members towards the Gen Ps Board so that they could get some greatly needed help. PSG as a whole is not a Free Edit Forum! It is a help and discussion forum for Ps users!

We decided that we should start to either delete the worst of said attempts or point them out. Most of the staff members chose to delete the edits and explain the reasons in PMs. This most often ended in a ban because the members did not appreciate that someone was telling them that their work needed some help and they would become aggressive, abusive, and unruly. For me, I did not prefer the confrontation that took place behind closed doors, so I opted to simply point out the mistake for both the OP's sake and for the member who was posting the troubled edit and hope that they would be motivated to ask for help. My goal then and now has only been to help our members to improve!

Having stated all of this I will now address your confusion. I'm to blame for not explaining myself above but the statement was not meant to say that all, of any skill level, are not welcome to participate!!! And yes it is an absolute certainty that we will have many under-skilled works being posted! My statement was more of a reference as to how these members should be addressed! I could either delete the posts or point out errors. Up until now, I have chosen to point out errors. But if this is not acceptable, I was merely attempting to offer the option of deletion!

The idea that a significant number of people apparently complain about free(!) work is fascinating. I'd love to know more.

You would absolutely be surprised! I've been dealing with them for ages now and I'm still surprised by the complaints and demands. While the complaints vary, most are ridiculous in nature and very annoying to deal with. My most recent one was early last week!

Let me add that we have way more satisfied members than we have complainers! So while the idea of complaints are novel, it's nothing to worry about.

I would really love to share more details when they come in, but I have to maintain the privacy you know!

 

[Rich54]

Got it... makes sense. To reiterate, my personal preference would be to point out errors rather than deleting posts.

 

[JeffK]

... issue,
The Free Edit Forum is not a discussion forum. No critique or criticisms are being offered, only the pointing out of errors. If you desire critiques, then you need to ask for one in the appropriate forum.
...
Despite what any might think, this forum is a TEACHING FORUM first and foremost! If any member chooses to post work in the open forum that needs corrections, then any observations and subsequent help will also be done in the open forum! This way, all members can benefit from the input.
...

I agree with having errors pointed out. But if it's a TEACHING forum then it has to go beyond criticism to pointing out solutions which is the basis of learning. Then again, as for the Free Edit Forum NOT being a discussion forum as stated above, then how do observations and subsequent help in the open forum fit in?

This now opens several questions - are the other forum members encouraged to criticize work? I can see the horrors of having an OP posting an image, receiving a response which is then followed by multiple posts and opinions, pulling apart the mistake, then discussing the error and it's solutions with the OP trundled off to the side. And are only technical errors to be pointed out? Or aesthetic errors as well such as oversaturated edits or bad composition and cropping? This could quickly get out of hand.

What prompted me, and what started the conversation between me and you, was the issue of being criticized several times publically on several consecutive edits. This while seeing other edits that I considered poor. That began to sting and maybe I should harden up especially on a public/anonymous forum. I guess that you assumed I knew how to fix them so nothing was offered beyond that criticism. In fact, the only offer of help in our conversation, was your comment that I'm working too fast and that's why the errors were happening. And you are right. Unfortunately that helpful obsrvation, which resonated with me, is now lost in the overall discussion.

I came here to learn and if criticism is part of it, so be it and accepted. In the time I've spent here, I've grown quite a bit and learned quite a lot even by just observing edit responses and asking myself the question I've always asked, "How did they do that?" Learning is a broad process and if that's the end point of a teaching forum, then it has to go beyond shortened criticism.

 

[IamSam]

then how do observations and subsequent help in the open forum fit in?

Observations occur and help ensues. Observations when and where needed, and help given when asked for and in the appropriate forum.

are the other forum members encouraged to criticize work?

Absolutely and does happen on occasion.

I can see the horrors of having an OP posting an image, receiving a response which is then followed by multiple posts and opinions, pulling apart the mistake, then discussing the error and it's solutions with the OP trundled off to the side

Poor choice of wording. You seem to be only viewing this from a negative and attacked point of view. The error can simply be pointed out with some discussion in the appropriate forum or just pointed out leaving the OP with the decision of whether or not to ask for help. Being trundled would be the personal choice of the OP. Perhaps the OP might be willing to help themselves and use the experience as a positive experience in which to improve.

And are only technical errors to be pointed out? Or aesthetic errors as well such as oversaturated edits or bad composition and cropping?

Any observation or suggestion that could possibly lead to improvement can always be pointed out. Bare in mind, some observations outside technical errors may be by personal preference or choice. You should make suggestions but they may not always be what the OP had in mind for their work.

This could quickly get out of hand.

Again, very negative thinking.

What prompted me, and what started the conversation between me and you, was the issue of being criticized several times publically on several consecutive edits. This while seeing other edits that I considered poor. That began to sting and maybe I should harden up especially on a public/anonymous forum. I guess that you assumed I knew how to fix them so nothing was offered beyond that criticism.

I absolutely never criticized anything!! I was never being critical about anything! I was simply pointing out technical errors. I fear you don't understand what criticism is.

Criticism, noun :the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes. :the construction of a judgement about the positive and negative qualities of someone or something. :may also refer to an expression of disapproval.

I never disproved of you or your work! All I simply did was point out an error(s). I do completely understand that you feel attacked somehow. I have assured you that this was not the case! I don't know what else I can do to make you understand that I'm not being critical!
If you see other works that you consider poor and would like to comment on, then please do so!

In fact, the only offer of help in our conversation, was your comment that I'm working too fast and that's why the errors were happening. And you are right. Unfortunately that helpful obsrvation, which resonated with me, is now lost in the overall discussion.

Lost in the discussion? Not sure if I understand. Does this mean that because of the subsequent circumstances and discussion that you are going to continue working too fast and making technical mistakes or are you considering slowing down and double checking your work? Or does this mean that I'm now and forever to be considered a demon from hell and that nothing I say or do will have any bearing on you at all?

I came here to learn and if criticism is part of it, so be it and accepted.

There's that criticism word again and with a "so be it". Contradicts the "came here to learn" part. Part of learning is having your mistakes pointed out. It's how all of us have progressed through life. I can not think of a single aspect of my own personal life where I have not benefited from others pointing out my shortcomings and mistakes!!!

In the time I've spent here, I've grown quite a bit and learned quite a lot even by just observing edit responses and asking myself the question I've always asked, "How did they do that?"

There's a lot to be learned from observation...............but observation without questions is a fools errand. I have always asked questions when curious about what someone did. Trying to figure something out on your own can be frustrating and not end well.

Learning is a broad process and if that's the end point of a teaching forum, then it has to go beyond shortened criticism.

There's that word again! And your RIGHT! When someone points out that you may have made some technical errors, then you do need to go beyond the observation and ask questions or seek out help and instruction!

Having stated all of this, I will also add so there is no confusion.....................I will always make observations, but I will not offer any unsolicited help. I've learned not to do that over the years!
You have to ask questions or for explanations. I have always been one to offer (BORINGLY) detailed explanations of how to do something in particular or something that I did.