Houston, I think we have a major problem here. (re: color management)

[Tom Mann]

In the recent thread, "Adjusting Profile Shots", the OP requested help color correcting a portrait of himself that he felt was overly red. Several of our more active members (including moderators and me) posted tweaked versions of that image that each of us felt had better colors than the original.

The range of colors in these tweaked versions was astonishingly wide - disappointingly so. I find that this is a common occurrence in PSG threads where tweaked versions of an image are posted.

In such a task, there will always be some variation in color because none of us has ever seen the subject in person, so our attempts at color correction will always be somewhat subjective. However, some of the wild skin colors seen in this thread are just not possible for a human. My assumption is that this color problem must arise because some of the folks that post here do not have a color managed workflow, including a decent quality calibrated monitor.

My feeling is that if a group of people represent themselves Photoshop "GURUS", then they better do a decent job on a simple task such as producing a decent head and shoulders portrait of a Caucasian guy. If they can't even get this right, it destroys their credibility. My recommendation is that folks here should pay a lot more attention to their color management.

To make the color problem easy to see, I produced a contact strip of all the tweaked versions in that thread. Below it, for comparison, I appended a contact sheet that I produced a long time ago that has a fairly large number of portraits with good color quality that show the range of (mostly Caucasian) skin tones. Several of these are excerpted from well known commercial color reference images.

Thoughts?

Tom

PS - BTW, I hope it's obvious that I'm not saying that my tweaked version is perfect, either. :sad:

 

[Paul]

In the recent thread, "Adjusting Profile Shots", the OP requested help color correcting a portrait of himself that he felt was overly red. Several of our more active members (including moderators and me) posted tweaked versions of that image that each of us felt had better colors than the original.

The range of colors in these tweaked versions was astonishingly wide - disappointingly so. I find that this is a common occurrence in PSG threads where tweaked versions of an image are posted.

In such a task, there will always be some variation in color because none of us has ever seen the subject in person, so our attempts at color correction will always be somewhat subjective. However, some of the wild skin colors seen in this thread are just not possible for a human. My assumption is that this color problem must arise because some of the folks that post here do not have a color managed workflow, including a decent quality calibrated monitor.

My feeling is that if a group of people represent themselves Photoshop "GURUS", then they better do a decent job on a simple task such as producing a decent head and shoulders portrait of a Caucasian guy. If they can't even get this right, it destroys their credibility. My recommendation is that folks here should pay a lot more attention to their color management.

To make the color problem easy to see, I produced a contact strip of all the tweaked versions in that thread. Below it, for comparison, I appended a contact sheet that I produced a long time ago that has a fairly large number of portraits with good color quality that show the range of (mostly Caucasian) skin tones. Several of these are excerpted from well known commercial color reference images.

Thoughts?

Tom

PS - BTW, I hope it's obvious that I'm not saying that my tweaked version is perfect, either. :sad:

Hi Tom,
I understand what you are saying but the 'gurus' is a milestone in posting NOT an attribution to skill level.
As for the colour that members portray within there own 'interpretations' then that is the prerogative of that member, not all people see things the same as you or others my friend.
To start a thread basically saying that members who are at guru level should be posting ONLY studio quality work is very very wrong in my opinion.
The site is here to help and show off works by members here, constructive critiques are gladly welcomed.
Your montage of peoples faces as a range of colours within them, they are not all one and the same, neither are people in the real world.

As for my entry i went with a tanned complexion rather than the red face the OP was asking to remove, I ACTUALLY OVER DID THE RED CHANNEL AND GAVE HIM BLOOD SHOT EYES, BUT THE op'S REQUEST HAD BEEN FULFILLED BY MY ENTRY, AS IT WAS BY EVERYONE ELSE WHO OBLIGED.

 

[ALB68]

Paul,
I agree with your thinking. The idea behind all of the forums I belong to is to help each other and to acquire knowledge to improve our endeavors. When something is posted (like some of my garbage) I benefit from the other's comments. I look forward to reading the comments and being constructive in my attitude toward them. In Tom's case, I feel that he is far advanced from many of us (me included) that his advice is of great importance to our forum. I came here to learn more about Photoshop. I have owned it since Version 7 but never really got into it except for minor corrections for engraving work. I recently suffered an illness that limited my mobility. In my search for things to occupy my mind, I purchased C6 and really was amazed at some of the new capabilities. Tom taught me how to define proper skin color, proper toning etc in short order. The overall feel for me was that all levels of expertise were welcome here. I wondered if I would ever achieve "Guru" status and wondered what the criteria was. Found out I could be a Guru today just by posting whatever that requirement is, so Tom, I could have that status and still not know chit. Maybe the forum needs to add an additional designation such as Advisor, Instructor or some such thing under one's title as a Guru. Just my two cents worth.

 

[dv8_fx]

These are (pre-set) forum user group options that automatically updates when one achieves a number of posts. Look at it as infant, toddler, teenager, adult . senior citizen...... and fossil (I'm in this user group).

It is in no way indicative of the level of skill that the user has.

There were special exceptions in the past when the forum was graced by renowned Photoshop artists/academics who were given PSGurus MENTOR Status. They had their own sections to moderate and hold tutorials, challenges and other relevant discussion.

Regardless whether one is a newbie or a guru , we are all constantly learning from each other. What matters is the transfer of technological know-how and design sense from one generation of PS users to another regardless of Photoshop proficiency level.

 

[Hoogle]

Where as Guru is misleading I agree with the concern to a point I also predicted a post like this coming from you as well Here is my take on how I see this forum.

This forum is not really here for freelance work etc it is more of a community who like to share there knowledge as a whole we will all try and teach people what we can some of us are amateurs and some of us know our way around photoshop better than they know there way around their own town.

Now somebody who knows there way around Photoshop can guess what filters are used and can mimic a lot of stuff you see out there does that make them a pro user or just a confident user I put them as a confident user. ANd that is what our forum is geared towards getting first time users to a confident level.

if you visit photoshopgurus.com you will see the more business side to it. This forum is merely a get yourself confident in photoshop and so******e with similar folks in the same boat as yourself. And every few months we will have a new member come along who "knows it all" and get pushed out as they are not the kind of people we have here, But then we also get members that come along and are very knowledgeable and have heaps of background to back up there knowledge who like to share that with other members.

As for doing all the requests and freelance work here they are accepted more because how else are people going to learn. We are not a 1 stop design Studio if we were then the prices would be far more reflective of real life prices. People that request freelance work here understands that this is not a design studio and can not expect everyone that submits an idea to be off the same standard as some of our more experienced users. And Really if you want a company logo design doing as an example would you pay $15 or $300+.

So I think your point is not an issue yes I have seen some amazing work on here and some very happy customers wether it be in freelance or free requests and that is really good for the site BUT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS SITE IS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A DESIGN STUDIO WITH PROFESSIONAL GRAPHIC DESIGNERS. IT is a photoshop community!!!!.


Like many people who use photoshop on a professional level it is only a tool which belongs in a bigger toolbox Anyone that claims to be a professional GRaphic designer and only use photoshop then I would instantly question it, knowing your way around photoshop does not make you a designer of any kind; knowledge and experience with a proven track record (ie a portfolio) and paid does. ANd that is an aspect I like to think we can help people to achieve here, Polish up on your skills and move on to bigger better things.

I bet 95% of our users are all people that dabble in photoshop for personal stuff etc only a very select view I imagine uses the program professionally as there main source of income.

We are a free teaching source to help with questions you may have about using the program amongst us I am sure someone will be able to answer 99.99999999% of questions anyone would like to throw at us.

PLease do not relate to us as a professional Design Studio we are not that!!!! some of us may work in 1 or even own our own, Some of us may be professional Photographers and use it for image processing (maybe more Bridge and lightroom orientated), some of us are 3D artist, animaters, CGI digital artists but however you look at it and despite sometimes some high quality work that comes out some of our members our site is based on learning, fun and so******ing between members that are experienced in the field or complete novices.

 

[MikeMc]

......A lot of thought here. Now, the subject Tom started with.....color. I found out by using 2 or 3 monitors, that most monitors look a bit different. Mine seem to show white in different 'casts" Yes calibration will solve that, but someone else will have the same color, but w/o calibration equal across the board, results will look different. look at the issues people can have with 18% gray.....





I'm not a GURU...just a "power user" :mrgreen::mrgreen:

 

[dv8_fx]

I'm not a GURU...just a "power user" :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Patience... ancient one... lol...

A guru in a few more posts you will be ........

 

[Tom Mann]

I'm a very straightforward guy. My comment was only about color correction. Nothing else was implied. It was a simple suggestion that if more care was taken with color management, our tips on technique would be a lot more credible. My thought was that this would likely attract more visitors and participants to this wonderful forum.

"Poor color" is one of the first things that even the most inexperienced mom and pop snapshooters will complain about.

If a first-timer on PSG asks how to correct the color of their photo, and the illustrations of technique that are offered all have colors worse than the original (and maybe contain colors not seen anywhere in nature ;-)), my guess is that we have NOT done our duty, and we've probably lost any hope of further participation from that person.

I'm not suggesting that people buy $2k Eizo monitors, or even NECs with SpectraView calibration systems or just a little $150 Spyder monitor calibration kit. If you simply have a nice range of reference images known to have good color open while you are making your tweaks, and you periodically view these images using the same system, you can easily see if you are straying too far from reality with the image you are currently adjusting. It's the same principle as sound engineers who, especially during mastering, will periodically re-calibrate their ears by comparing the current mix with other pieces of high quality music.

I said absolutely nothing to the effect that people should censor themselves from posting unless their work was perfect, nor did I mention anything about pushing freelance pro level work here, nor did I mention anything about who is a pro that earns their income from design and who isn't, nor did I request special status for such pros.

To close, I fully agree with the comment that whether one is a newbie or guru, we all learn from each other. But, to be blunt, I think that everyone who posted to that thread (myself included) knows more than enough to have done a better job, but I also suspect that for some reason (limited time, lack of interest, whatever), decided to cut it short and settled for a half-a**ed effort.

My original post was intended to be little more than a suggestion that we all set higher goals for ourselves.

I am sorry to have brought to the fore some strong feelings and other issues with my posting.

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Paul]

I'm a very straightforward guy. My comment was only about color correction. Nothing else was implied. It was a simple suggestion that if more care was taken with color management, our tips on technique would be a lot more credible. My thought was that this would likely attract more visitors and participants to this wonderful forum.

"Poor color" is one of the first things that even the most inexperienced mom and pop snapshooters will complain about.

If a first-timer on PSG asks how to correct the color of their photo, and the illustrations of technique that are offered all have colors worse than the original (and maybe contain colors not seen anywhere in nature ;-)), my guess is that we have NOT done our duty, and we've probably lost any hope of further participation from that person.

I'm not suggesting that people buy $2k Eizo monitors, or even NECs with SpectraView calibration systems or just a little $150 Spyder monitor calibration kit. If you simply have a nice range of reference images known to have good color open while you are making your tweaks, and you periodically view these images using the same system, you can easily see if you are straying too far from reality with the image you are currently adjusting. It's the same principle as sound engineers who, especially during mastering, will periodically re-calibrate their ears by comparing the current mix with other pieces of high quality music.

I said absolutely nothing to the effect that people should censor themselves from posting unless their work was perfect, nor did I mention anything about pushing freelance pro level work here, nor did I mention anything about who is a pro that earns their income from design and who isn't, nor did I request special status for such pros.

To close, I fully agree with the comment that whether one is a newbie or guru, we all learn from each other. But, to be blunt, I think that everyone who posted to that thread (myself included) knows more than enough to have done a better job, but I also suspect that for some reason (limited time, lack of interest, whatever), decided to cut it short and settled for a half-a**ed effort.

My original post was intended to be little more than a suggestion that we all set higher goals for ourselves.

I am sorry to have brought to the fore some strong feelings and other issues with my posting.

Cheers,

Tom

Tom i never do any freelance work, but i will be dammed if i will do anything 100% for free.
Your a good guy, i like you immensely, you have a worded knowledge of Photoshop that s second to none, i envy that ability.
Let's all rock on from here dude.

 

[SCTRWD]

Tom, it's just a forum, all right?

I, for one, just show the right direction to save the people from the senseless and fuitless efforts, but I won't ever do the whole job for them for free.

but I also suspect that for some reason (limited time, lack of interest, whatever), decided to cut it short and settled for a half-a**ed effort.

That is so! But the reason is that there is always some threshold when a mere advice turns to just "do it for me" job

It all comes down to how much effort you can spare on a given post. If I post an answer - it means: that's all I can do for you for now, from now on it's do it yourself thing. I will explain whatever you didn't understand, but I won't do it for you, sorry...

 

[Paul]

Ok Toms made a valid point, let's please move on from this, hes blaming no one he even included himself.
We are all here to learn and share guys/dolls.

 

[Tom Mann]

Amen. Thank you, Paul (and everyone else).

Peace, (need long-haired hippy icon here ;-) )


Tom M

 

[Tom Mann]

"...But the reason is that there is always some threshold when a mere advice turns to just "do it for me" job

It all comes down to how much effort you can spare on a given post. If I post an answer - it means: that's all I can do for you for now, from now on it's do it yourself thing. I will explain whatever you didn't understand, but I won't do it for you, sorry..."

Excellent insight, SCTRWD. I hadn't thought of that as one of the possible reasons, but I can see it. If I think someone wants a significant amount of work handed to them on a silver platter (and they're not a charity case), I'll usually just down rez my tweaked version to such a small size that they can't do much with it, or watermark it, but simply intentionally limiting the amount of time one puts into a demo after "telling them how" is certainly another possibility.

T

 

[ALB68]

Being a new member here, I was wondering how it is that soooo many people that are 1st time posters are coming to this forum and asking for photos and other images to be tweaked or repaired etc. Why is that and how is the word getting to them.."Hey, dude, join PSG and submit your junky photo and some of those suckers over there will fix it for you", is that how it goes? I felt that was a bit unusual, but I attempted to "fix" some of them myself and it was good practice and I learned from it. After being around here for a bit, I think SCTRWD is right and rather than attempt to fix something for someone pro bono and be held up to scutiny, I am going to refrain from that practice in the future. I realize (probably more than others) is that money is tight and in short supply and I need to spend my time trying to make a buck in lieu of being a good samaritan.I am willing to share what little knowledge I have, just not big hunks of time doing repair jobs for gratis.

 

[Tom Mann]

I just had a diabolical idea: Would anyone be up for a new, separate technical thread about color adjustments? For example, there are some color problems that may not look very bad but are next to impossible to fix without switching to a manual re-coloring mode, while there are other color problems that look downright awful, but can be completely fixed simply by moving one slider.

Tom

 

[dv8_fx]

Go for it , Tom.... open a new thread.

I'm sure a lot will be interested in this subject.

 

[rufinatti]

I just had a diabolical idea: Would anyone be up for a new, separate technical thread about color adjustments? For example, there are some color problems that may not look very bad but are next to impossible to fix without switching to a manual re-coloring mode, while there are other color problems that look downright awful, but can be completely fixed simply by moving one slider.

Tom

I'm always willing to learn if someone is willing to teach.

 

[ALB68]

Most certainly. I am working on learning all I can about color and adjustments. You tha man!

I just had a diabolical idea: Would anyone be up for a new, separate technical thread about color adjustments? For example, there are some color problems that may not look very bad but are next to impossible to fix without switching to a manual re-coloring mode, while there are other color problems that look downright awful, but can be completely fixed simply by moving one slider.

Tom

 

[Tom Mann]

OK. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll have to dig up some suitable starting images. I'll start one later today or tonight. We should have some interesting fun with it.

Tom

 

[MikeMc]

OK. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll have to dig up some suitable starting images. I'll start one later today or tonight. We should have some interesting fun with it.

Tom

Sounds like fun...