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Grinds in my craw...


Fatboy73

Fatboy73

Guru
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Hello everyone,

I'm still pretty new here, but I had to speak up about an issue that REALLY bugs me. You guys have a great site here and some wonderful and talented people on it. That being said, I know that people are able to post for free work and help here, and that's all good and well, but... I think you should severely limit what services people are able to request for free.

My reasoning is, simple jobs are great for portfolio and learning experience, and for something that only takes 5 minutes free is fine. The problem is I see people asking to have their company logos designed for little to nothing for crimeys sake. I see others posting for free work that takes an enormous amount of skill and time.

I know the rule here is if you don't like the request, don't respond to the job. That's all good and well too, but it seems there is ALWAYS someone who is willing to knock out spectacular,commercial quality work for nothing.
To be perfectly honest, there are always people willing to take advantage of others if able and when members take on big jobs for free, they're in fact hurting the graphic arts community and taking work away from the professionals. Why pay for something(when you are more than able to) when you can get it for free.

I assume there are professionals here that would agree with me, and I am not suggesting anything radical. Just a greater restriction on free services, and maybe even a minimum fee for services rendered. I would think if you can afford to be on the internet asking for free work, you can afford to pay someone a small fee for their hard work that you are unable to do. I also believe it would keep the ones only here to get some free work away, and make people have a greater appreciation for what we do.

Just my two cents. I doubt if I'm the first one to bring this up, but I would like to hear everyone's take on it
Do I have a legitimate point? Am I completely off my rocker? Should the newbie just shut up and mind his own business? Let me know. :D
 
Thanks for the comments.
You're right, this isn't the first time the subject has been brought up and probably won't be the last.
A few feel there should be a charge for everything, some feel like you, and some look at it as a challenge to try something they wouldn't have normally thought of or tried.
It's their time to use as they see fit.

We've made some changes and restrictions but we can't please everyone.
Steve
 
I've talked about this on many occasions, but it falls on deaf ears for the most part. Some people almost fight over getting to work for free, as if it's some kind of privelege.

My suggestion is for everyone to watermark all of their work. If they don't want to you pay for it, at least you get some advertising if they post it elsewhere. If they want it without a watermark, they should pay you for your time, effort and skills.

If you want to justify it with "I'm doing it to practice", be aware that adding a watermark does not alter the practice you are getting.

The more work is given out for free the less likely anyone is to want to pay, and honestly everyone can afford to offer something even if it's minimal.

Very few, if any, of these "requesters" contribute anything to the site, they get their freebie and they're gone. If they return at all it's only to get another freebie, and of course there is always someone willing to give away their work.
 
hawkeye said:
I've talked about this on many occasions, but it falls on deaf ears for the most part. Some people almost fight over getting to work for free, as if it's some kind of privelege.

My suggestion is for everyone to watermark all of their work. If they don't want to you pay for it, at least you get some advertising if they post it elsewhere. If they want it without a watermark, they should pay you for your time, effort and skills.

If you want to justify it with "I'm doing it to practice", be aware that adding a watermark does not alter the practice you are getting.

The more work is given out for free the less likely anyone is to want to pay, and honestly everyone can afford to offer something even if it's minimal.

Very few, if any, of these "requesters" contribute anything to the site, they get their freebie and they're gone. If they return at all it's only to get another freebie, and of course there is always someone willing to give away their work.
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely, especially on the last two paragraphs. I guess what ticks me off the most are people asking for company logos and highly skilled work for little or nothing. These people know what it would cost them to have it professionally done. A company logo is the face of their business, something that is going to advertise for them, draw in customers and help
make THEM money, possibly a lot of it. But they can't afford to pay for it?

People requesting these items should be reprimanded and then booted if they try it again. For all other free work requests, the poster should have to be a contributing member for at least a month.

As Steve has mentioned, they have made changes in policy, and you can't make everyone happy, but the aforementioned ideas are simple and would go a long way in discouraging exploitative people.
 
Fatboy73 said:
I agree with you completely, especially on the last two paragraphs. I guess what ticks me off the most are people asking for company logos and highly skilled work for little or nothing. These people know what it would cost them to have it professionally done. A company logo is the face of their business, something that is going to advertise for them, draw in customers and help
make THEM money, possibly a lot of it. But they can't afford to pay for it?

People requesting these items should be reprimanded and then booted if they try it again. For all other free work requests, the poster should have to be a contributing member for at least a month.

As Steve has mentioned, they have made changes in policy, and you can't make everyone happy, but the aforementioned ideas are simple and would go a long way in discouraging exploitative people.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with this mate. I think all people should watermark their work in order to stop the people just making accounts for free stuff and then never coming back or contributing to the site.
 
We all have our limits I will only do free requests if it is for none profit usage ie if it is for business logos etc I wont touch them and to be honest I will not touch them in the freelance section unless the price is on par with with lets say what it would cost in real life give or take a few dollars.

But I sometimes like to do the free requests if I have a slow week or something then I enjoy doing them but I will often limit it to this is my attempt to making it look good take it or leave it I will not keep altering it to fine tune it to a specific need etc.


Does doing free requests kill the market of course it doesnt at this time if anything has killed it then it is the internet at fault

what is $30 to us westerners will be worth 10+ times that for some poorer Countries who will jump at the chance to work at half that amount, forums like this let those worker be part of the design world a lot more easily.

If you are good at what you do and use Graphic design as your main source of income then you have to either have job security (very hard to get) or a good rep as your own company/freelancer if you are at the top of your game then you will always get clients. If you are a serious business and you want graphic design doing you will approach somebody with the credentials to do your work. Yeah sure some good quality work leaves this site for a fraction of what we normally would charge but then you never know who you are dealing with.

I did a free request on here and now get guaranteed monthly work that is minimal as I have a template automated process for the the job and it pays well.

I have also had 2 actual Job Offers and currently got an opportunity to work for a worldwide famous company who is sending me to Paris next week and then a further trip to the States (I am from the UK) where if I get the Job or accept it will be a life changing job for me and relocation to America.

The bottom line is people who turn there nose up at free work etc may actually be turning there nose up at bigger opportunities I have not been recognized for my work here from charging people in fact I have only done 1 paid job in the whole time I have been a member here and that was because people shunned the post didnt believe it to be real or something I cant remember and I did it because it was easy and paid quite well for the amount of work done in it.


Yes a lot of requests get deleted and people should really avoid stupid requests but then there are also a lot of young people here who like to call themselves Graphic designers and experienced in the trade that are no older than 17 where I think that is great that they like using such software and are being creative I think a lot of them get a reality check when they post thinking there work is great etc and someone else comes along and posts more superior work I think it it gives the young guys a level to work towards and actually see the level they are competing against in this market.


Unfortunately every kid that knows the internet can get there hands on a copy of photoshop for free follow a few youtube tutorials and call themselves graphic designers and then they will sell poor quality work for cheap and lower the standard charges because everyone is competetive they will match the price of untalented people just to get the job when really They shouldnt.

You spend years learning the trade
any serious person if they call themselves a professional or a Graphic Designer of any nature should be earning money and have a client list to back it up should be buying the software and setting up a legitimate business, You dont set up a car dealership selling stolen cars do you??? (ok some people do lol)
If you really are that good then you will charge for your work but to be able to be at that level you need some sort of portfolio thats where we are Brilliant for portfolio building and people starting off in the trade.

I think people confuse a lot of members who are doing this maybe as a hobby or a small sideline business to generate income etc for Professionals. The professionals tend to stay away from the free requests (I dont believe in that) or will not help others out and will only show up on the freelance threads I also totally disagree with that.


Bottom line is there is only a small percentage of Graphic designers that can count on the internet to make a sustainable profit and lead a good life from it PSG has never been or never will be my main source of income and nor should it be for anyone.

People will rant about free requests people will rant about paid work we can not please everybody and if they do not get the work done here then they will only get it done else where.

this is a free site to members to use and learn and is also one of the best learining sources for photoshop on the web hell it is even better than what many design students have been taught at college etc if you have a question or want to learn how to do something then I guarentee 99% of the time someone here will be able to guide you.

and this is what Psg is a learning and discussion site that is made free for people to share and contribute with great overhead costs so if a few free requests get done that generates traffic to the site then atleast admin gets an income, Trust me hosting a site this size is not cheap, free requests are my way of giving back to the forum it gets people to the site it generates income. I have learnt a lot here myself mainly from doing requests and have made some brilliant friends who I talk with away from this site so yeah I am for free requests in moderation and with limits.
 
quite frankly i think with recent copyright rule turning up, people are being restricted enough we can't use/edit a simple google image because of "copyright reasons" for the most part i agree, but it's hard to find anything that is free for commercial use and the effort that goes into making a purely yours image is too much for a small paid/free job.

big pay yeah, make it ALL YOURS OR FREE FOR COMMERCIAL USE.

but for tiny jobs it's just not worth making it from scratch.

i do free work on occasion,i love it and i do it for the learning and the experience, to be honest, just for them to say they like it and that they want to to use it should be payment enough and to have restrictions put in place on something people LIKE DOING, is just wrong, all of the restrictions put in place here so far have been justifiable like the copyright rule being put in place but not a restriction here.

i would love to work for a fee but it's just too much messing around as i use my friends paypal account and other freelance section users have other programs like C4D which provide an unfair advantage to the pure photoshop users, sure, i don't mind, i think it's great that people will use C4D to provide better work but it sometimes can feel like already the photoshop users have lost the ball because the other guys are using other programs to further enhance their work.

THAT is something that should be restricted slightly more in my opinion, like i said, it's great that they are using it and all, but this site is called PHOTOSHOP gurus not PHOTOSHOP+ OTHER PROGRAMS gurus.

that's just my idiotic opinion.
 
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Would a mechanic restrict themselves to just using screwdrivers as the only method to getting a job done.

can Graphic designers really just count on photoshop to do there work and rule out illustrator lets be real about this without going to off topic if you are in the business to make money you need to learn a variety of programs people that only create logos and other graphic design in just photoshop really are not doing the best quality it can be. most serious logo design should really be done in illustrator.

As a cinema 4d user, illustrator user and whatever other program I feel will get the best results with least amount of work then I will do it the truth is photoshop is not designed for 3D work yes it touches on it but just does not have the flow or cleanliness to use as a dedicated 3d program.

I have never met anyone in any profession that only uses 1 tool to do there job so why should this be any different if you want to make a good living from your trade then you have to learn and invest in the tools that you will need to provide what the customers want.

3D work is getting very popular and if used right looks awesome. If you are getting paid for a job then you want best results for your client.

We may be called photoshop gurus but look at our forum sections we also have many other application based sections 1 including 3d and cinema 4d should we just delete those forums because it is not just photoshop.

That said you can produce stunning designs in photoshop but really graphic design was never the primary usage for photoshop over the years it has turned from a photo editing suite hence photo in the title to a more diverse application letting you do graphic design elements as part of your normal graphic design work flow.

For people out there that may see this as a hobby and dont want to invest thousands of dollars in additional software then they can use free alternatives any trade you have the equipment that is best for you to do your job.

1 of the only times I have totally disagreed with you Zee and to put an example into your way of thinking you improve game textures for counter strike or ghost recon dont you or something like that so you can say your using additional tools to improve your gaming experience should that be allowed or should you just play the game as it came and you paid for. the same applies for us we will use additional tools and as the market gets more and more flooded by people competing for work then our skill base has to be larger than our competitors.
 
hey i said it was an idiotic opinion! :P

but really with all due respect, i think you've blown this out of proportion here.

i was saying, that some people cannot afford programs like C4D and illustrator ON TOP OF photoshop and the others. and i think sometimes use should be slightly restricted not COMPLETELY, as you must have percieved, just slightly, so it gives neat photoshop users that little bit more of a chance, this is a community, not a competition. and i think as a community we need to support each other and back each other up as well as the clients.

that's all i was saying. i wasn't putting the suggestion in of completely removing the candy from the child or anything, so really there was no need for the frustration...
 
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Business is always a competition, that is why everyone else is classed as a competitor. People who have the correct tools for the job should not be hindered because other people have neglected to equip themselves with the same tools. That's not how the real world works, and it wouldn't work here. If you go to any other freelance site and get asked to do a logo, they always ask for it in .eps and .ai format. If you want to compete with people who have illustrator, save up and get it like we did. You are right that this is a community, but when it comes to getting paid work, it's a cut throat world.

This website has never been massive for getting paid work in anyway! It has focused more on teaching people how to get to grips with not just Photoshop, but other Adobe and other makers of software. It's a place where people can show their work, and chat to other people who enjoy Photoshop.
 
couple of years ago i was doing some independent applications development and there was excellent forum related to programming platform i was using.
first 3 months i spent in just reading other peoples posts, after that i posted my first question, the answer was:
"RTFM" with reference to the page in the manual...
here the things are bit different, not necessary better or worse.
first time i had a chance to work on the computer was 1989. probably before most of you guys were born.
i've been using photoshop for more than 12 years now, and last 4 years as the professional in the studio ps and coreldraw.
even, so, my first post here was the interface question i had problems with and got my answer right away, form one of the gurus here. so i decided to stay arround and contribute as much as i can, and as well as benefit from this forum.
many people here are having one and only post like: request for facelift, request-do my car, request-make surprise photo for my girlfriend...
these don't want to learn how to catch the fish, they just want to get one... it is up to you guys if you want to give the fish away. i prefer teaching people how to catch it as well as been thought.
here is an example from this forum:
http://www.photoshopgurus.com/forum/general-photoshop-board/39222-how-do.html#post1533597823
company logos requests: they should be payed for, even i do that more than often i can say logotypes in jpg and psd formats are nothing any serious company will accept, so never give away .eps files for no charge as they will make profit of that. sports clubs, charities and similar should get them for free.
as well i don't mind working free for the people with passed away members of families and it is my choice.
 
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I could not agree more with Ibis, especially the last point. Who would want to profit from the death of somebodies loved ones. Were not undertakers. This thread for example! There is a lot of people here who have had help of people for free, but they must have forgot about it. We going to start charging for advice and tutorials now as well.

p.s. On an unrelated issue, hats off to the guy who does the web optimization for this site, always a good position on a Google search.
 
Help and advice are not the same as doing work for someone. I can go to a house painter and ask for advice about painting, but asking him to actually do the work for free falls into another category altogether.

There are two sides to most everything. I see someone mention we're not undertakers, true. But why does, someone who cares so much about their loved one, seek a freebie instead of going to a professional to get the best possible work for a remembrance? Because people are people and free beats paying for it, even under that circumstance for some.

Then there's the non-profit organization request. My daughter worked for one for years, the CEO made $500,000 a year and they had plenty of money for anything they wanted. But they always started off by asking for it for free, and a lot of times they got it.

I've used to do free work and never once did it lead to anything than another request for more free work. People can justify their actions in any way they choose, but working for free benefits no one except the person who receives it.

I'm always ready, time permitting, to assist someone who really wants to learn.

You want to do free work, at least put your watermark. If you feel it's really an honest worthwhile thing you are doing, place it as an artist would sign his work.
 
ibis said:
my first post here was the interface question i had problems with and got my answer right away, form one of the gurus here. so i decided to stay arround and contribute as much as i can, and as well as benefit from this forum.
Click to expand...

the reason why i joined was fairly similar, i think it was a wallpaper improvement question, and i decided to (unfortunately for this lot) stick around
 
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