for you deep thinkers

[ronmatt]

If we accept the 'BIG BANG' theory, Then we accept that the finite universe has a boundry and that beyond that boundry exists an 'undefinable' nothingness. This is referred to as the macrocosm. Using the finite universe as the 'benchmark' and going from it, in the opposite direction, ('in' as opposed to 'out'). into the microcosm, we must, inevitably, eventually arrive at the same place. An 'undefinable' nothingness. Past the molecule, the atom, the electrons, hadrons, protons and mesotrons lies nothingness. The 'glitch' that we define as 'the universe' or reality, is constructed of nothing, exist in nothing. and is surrounded by nothing. Is the nothingness that "is" beyond the edge of the macrocosm and the nothingness that 'is' beyond the edge of the microcosm, one in the same? If so, then what are we. Or ARE we?
This is beyond Zen or the Tao. This is beyond God. Think on it.

 

[Welles]

Your entire logic chain seems based upon the premise that beyond the limits of your comprehension is nothing. I don't accept that premise.

Unknown doesn't equal nothing...it is just waiting for discovery... or not.

 

[chillman]

No offense, but nothing is beyond God. Not a religious nutcase or anything, but this is my belief.

If you can accept the big bang theory, you have to accept that there was something there before that. Something had to set it off. Something very powerful. I have always been a believer that that we are not the only ones here in, not only our own universe, but the entire realm of existance. It would be too arrogant to believe that.

Being a believer in the Bible, and what it says, I have a dificult time believing that things just happened. I am a creationist so to speak. That doesn't mean that I am saying that Adam and Eve looked like you and I. I don't know what you look like beyond the cartoony elderly man, but I think you understand. I believe that people from their time differed in appearance significantly from modern day man.

Since I am talking about that, I will share some other thoughts with all of you who read this. While I believe that man was created by the hand of God, I also believe that evolution has had a hand in what we see now. Looking around you, it cannot be denied that evolutionary processes exist. Compare a person from Africa to someone from Europe. Compare someone from India to someone from the midwestern American States. DEFINITE differences. So, Since we all came from two people, and we are so many different varieties of folks now, you cannot deny that evolution exists.

I also don't neccesarily beleive that the people from that time used only sticks and stones. I beleive that they had technology beyond what we know of. There have been a few discoveries in places such as Mexico and Africa that some believe to be "Alien" technology. If you look at the chronological order of things in the Bible, before the Earth was flooded, there was almost 1200 years from "In the Beginning" to Swim Sucka! In orer to build an ark that would hold that many animals, and last for that long carrying such weight, it would have put the Titanic and Britania to shame. There had to be better technology. Where is it? I don't know. There's a lot of sea out there...

Anyway, my two cents. My final conclusion?


1)Big Bang - Started by God or didn't happen. God just did it.
2)Evolution Vs. Creationism - Both. creationism, then man evolved through a process of natural selection.
3)Noah had quite a mess to clean up with just a broom and a mop. There was more, better ways.

Now that you all think I am a whack job, feel free to call the guys in the little white van. \:]

 

[ronmatt]

To the contrary. The logic chain simply questions what is real. Do we have any concept of a reality that extends beyond a physical universe? Everything we [know] is predicated on the limitations of human experience, which is 'start-stop'. I had a professor who, in his introductory class, put a chalk dot on a blackboard (30'x10' ?). His opening statement to the class was. "Imagine this chalkboard is a painting, covered by a piece of canvas. Now imagine that this dot of chalk, is a hole in that canvas. Look through the hole, and describe the painting". Any description would be conjecture and assumption, based solely on the small amount of information gleened as you peer through the small hole. The nothingness I described previously, can't be described because description gives it parameters and parameters would make it something. No, the previous post simply suggests that there may be a different way of viewing what the universe is and what it's about. Anything else would make me a nihilist. I'm certainly not that. The universe is still covered by a canvas, and with our limited perceptions, we only have a hole to peer through. If anything, this makes God an intergral part of the universe. Or, indeed, the vary universe itself.

 

[chillman]

You're weird dude...

That's what makes this forum so fun

8} 8}

 

[Welles]

Do we have any concept of a reality that extends beyond a physical universe?

Well I do. However, I don't bother plaguing other people with concepts for which they have no experiential framework in which to make contextual sense out of the verbiage.

The human mind can only get so far with it's speculative exercises in defining the universe. Those are valuable at certain points of personal and human cultural evolution, don't get me wrong, but finite and limited. Experience or even just concepts of the larger realities must be revealed.

Even revealed concepts and information are dicey propositions at best, as they must be presented in terms which aren't quite adequate to express those realities.

Long ago I came to the conclusion all the mental gymnastics of speculative cosmology can be viewed as heavy lifting for one's brain but beyond that a wait and see attitude is more practical.

 

[ronmatt]

actually, I'm not so wierd. I live a fairly normal life, I managed to raise two kid's that didn't get drugged out, or arrested or ? I drive a mini-van and have alway's provided well for my family. I've been married to my wife for 32 years, never cheated. I have good credit and own my own home as well as a [cabin] near Lake Tahoe. I have managed not to be too jaded after 64 years. (I did get a bit lost in the 60's). The only really wierd thing about me is that I have no idea of what it's all about. I did when I was much younger, but not anymore. The world being what it is today, I think I'd rather believe that it's all random chance that we're here, (or even that there is a here) rather than believe that someone or something planned it to be this way. So I play a game with it. I really don't believe in any of my previous postings and don't understand most of them in depth. The spirit of this thread was more like; do you believe that extraterrastrial life exists? and if so, describe them. It was just something to rap about.

 

[Sean]

I'm very fasinated about space and whats 'beyond'. I'm a treky, I watch the science channel and read Popular Science, and sorta geeky/gamer/digital artist. I've always been intrigued by that kinda stuff.
Also, I sorta agree with chillman. I don't believe in the Big Bang theory or that life started in pool of goo from some random molecules. I believe in God, the Bible and creation. I belive God created the universe and everything in it. I think chillman is right about "evolution" so-called. I don't think we evolved from apes, but I think that man has "evolved" or more like "adapted". Any place on earth you can witness life that is perfectly suited to it's enviorment, even humans. An Aboriganies body function and motabolism is perfectly suited for the harsh heat and cold nights of Austalia. Their bodies do not loss alot of sweat even in dry 90+ degree weather. And at night thier motabolism slows down and thier body conserves heat so they are able to sleep outside in the cold, which can reach almost freezing. Eskimos have adapted to thiere envoirment in the same way. Even thier bodies have developed short, rounded features help to keep warm.
Anyway, like welles said, "The human mind can only get so far with it's speculative exercises in defining the universe".
Oh, and do I think extraterrastrial life exists....well yes and no. I would like to, but it hasn't been proven....yet. I think there is a good chance of alien life out there. We are only a tiny solar system, orbiting a star, much like the millions just within our galaxy, the Milky Way. Beyond our galaxy is hundreds of galaxys, and beyond that is clusters of galaxys which makes up the super cluster. So, don't you think that maybe, just maybe alien life exists out there, some were? So far we have only found planets orbiting other stars, but none of which are capable of supporting life, at least intelligent life. For now we are still studing mars, trying to uncover remnants of existence of even microscopic life.
Well, thats my thoughts.

 

[Raven]

A lot of things come to mind regarding astrophysics, cosmology, religions/God....the questions, the "answers" offered....

I get stuck on the old question that if there's one all powerful God, then how did that entity get "created." By what means????

Just answer that and then there's progress at least for me. \:]




Until there's an answer other than the old "you just gotta believe it on faith," my program hangs there.



That's not to say I don't think there's plenty of stuff going on in all sorts of multidimensional levels we just can't comprehend due in part simply to our own physical limitations here while in these bodies...and there's some things science tries to explain about brain waves and thought (or some would refer to consciousness as your spirit), and the brain perhaps being totally separate from our consciousness instead of what supposedly generates it..... so we could go on in another energy form after the physical body ends for us here, people who have near death experiences feel they know the answer.....I think it's all possible.....but, just for me personally, I haven't found anything that just convinces me without a doubt. Not yet at least....but someday I'll either know, or there will be just "nothingness." But I'm always open to whatever is brought forth. It's entertaining when it doesn't give me headaches.

So far I've only got my own experiences to work from. Any other "ideas" I have are just that, notions without proof. Since people can and do "hallucinate" from various causes it makes it hard to gleen anything factual from others "spiritual" experiences. I have to consider that their experiences, whatever they are, are for them. A personal thing.

People can believe anything they want, that's no problem for me...I only take issue with it when others try to push their "beliefs" on me, try to force me to live according to their religious beliefs, or use those beliefs to threaten harm to others. Such behaviors seem hypocritical to what religions purport to want to foster -- kindness, foregiveness, love, etc.

But back to the question of nothing from nothing, ie, if you accept there was ever a state of "nothingness" so does that make us "nothing," and if we are "something" then we must have come from something......So to start, how do you define "nothingness" ... I mean just for starters, what is that? Do we even "know" in a multidimensional cosmos based on our own experience here alone...or are capable of grasping what that is?

We think we know what "something" is.......then based on what????????

If you can't define what "nothing" is, how can you define what "anything/something" is?

Or.......can you consider that there may be things we haven't experienced yet that might clue us in??????

Oh yeah.....
8D




I guess it's like the old child's question that if there is an "all powerful" God, can it create a rock even it can't lift??????? I've never been given an answer to that concept.

 

[ronmatt]

See, we have an interesting thread going here. It doesn't matter that we agree or disagree. That's not the point, is it? Just throwing around ideas,
maybe doing a little introspection. I can accept creationism and evolution as a dualistic belief. I have a hard time with the timeline however. It seems too restrictive to say all of this took place 6,000 +- years ago.
I'm also mystified with the Creation per genesis. Whytwo separate and distinct accountings of the creation [Gen. 1 and Gen.2] One accounting contradicts the other. How can you have the chicken before the egg in one and the egg before the chicken in another? And then call it truth. If it is intended to be a mystery to test faith, then couldn't everything else be as well. Please don't any one take offense. I'm only selling questions, not answers

 

[Erik]

You can say nothing about that which goes beyond your understanding. Most people feel the need to have an opinion on everything, but all knowledge is always a deformed simplification.
It can be so that apples do fall off the trees because some invisible rainbow-coloured little guy who lives on one of tempel's comets decides they have to, but even if that's the truth, it leaves us in a void. Gravity, limited as it may be to a theory (math with axioms) and a practice (experiments under artificial lab conditions), and simplified to a constant (which it isn't) at least gives us the chance to do something like getting a rocket to Mars.

Besides: sice Einstein we know that a planet falls directly to the sun and it's only because space is curved that it turns round and round and round...

 

[stanislav]

Hi guys,

This is really interesting stuff. i readed a lot bout these things.
Imo nothing lasts forever only change itself.
But my english is not so good to elaborate things but i like to share my toughts on this.
I allways believed in "god" but not anymore since i readed some "zen" books. If god created some kind of bigbang who or what created god himself ??
And why we can't see the universe as god ? All people and creations are part of are universe, even our thoughts, creations and rules. So why can't
have our universe can't have some kind of "inteligence" that is exploring itself trough human and maybe other minds. One thing is for shure creations are first born as a tought and we people can create virtually anything.

Damn i wish my english was better so i could explain better.
Or maybe u guys can take a crashcourse in dutch

 

[Welles]

It can be so that apples do fall off the trees because some invisible rainbow-coloured little guy who lives on one of tempel's comets decides they have to...

Wow! I didn't know that! 8} :B \:]

 

[chillman]

Ronmatt,
I was only being playful with the wierd comment. [innocent] Please don't take offense. I am sure you were and are a fantastick father and family man. Just in jest.

Peace all!

Chillman

 

[Raven]

B7 I enjoy listening to other's ideas about such topics. I guess it's the sharing of the ideas, the interchange itself, perhaps more often than whether or not any "solution" is arrived at that inspires me. Finding "answers" to questions is useful to a certain point, practical and applicable, but the exploring of the questions itself has many interesting rewards that don't seem so apparent at the outset, imo.

I guess (and I'm sorry that I don't speak Dutch or French or Spanish, etc. etc. because I really would love to listen to people expressing themselves as they are most comfortable with their language -- things don't translate into English always too well, and I think English misses the boat in expressing what other languages perhaps can...anyway, my apologies there if what I say seems weird [confused] ) I am trying to say I think that even those things we think we have a working knowledge of is really only a limited knowledge but it's useful to us to certain degrees (until a randomness peeks over the fence and surprises us with an "unexpected" result we hadn't planned for).......we observe cause and effect as only we are capable of at present (but we advance our meager knowledge as we advance in our creativity in invention of better "tools" thanks to our mental faculties).....and so depending on what our invented "tools of the moment" are, and our creativity in thought allows us to translate from that, in doing that we gather information and try to organize it into something we can work with. We feel we have certainly made progress over the eons...no doubt we have in tecnology and many other ways...but perhaps in doing so we forget some things too. Things which are much more than all the technology we have become so fascinated with....and just in my way of thinking could determine just how long we will be around here to continue pondering our questions.

Mathematics seems to be thought of as the answer in science to explain most everything. That with it as the tool the cosmos is just a tick tock away from our complete understanding because we think we've got mathematics down pretty well and are satisfied with most of what it tells us and has allowed us to build in the physical world (but there, I would even say I rather doubt that too....just look at pi as an example, just numbers....we can use it, but will we ever get to the final "solution" there? Supercomputers are working on it -- and pi keeps throwing in the randomness that is a reminder perhaps that some things may have no end even if they may have a so-called "beginning" (again a term that in its own limits and definition strikes me as "alien" somehow, simply another boundery we have constructed for our use, but doesn't necessarily mean anything in a cosmic sort of sense)....but mathematics is outta my league. I don't have mathematical knowledge enough to go beyond just these sorts of calculations, I get bogged down in mathematics and its sets of rules and restrictions and frameworks and that's fine -- but mathematics doesn't provide "answers" to the questions I have, the questions that are proposed in this topic.... :\ ).

I "feel" the "questions" are the most important aspect of -- well, "everything" (whatever that is!). [confused]

The questions and "mysteries" we find have a beauty, imo. I haven't words to express it here......but I think we all feel it. And I feel we try often to express what we have trouble in languages with our artwork. A picture can be worth more than a thousand words, after all.

For me, it isn't "answers" it's the exploration or the ideas, the quest,
the voyage......

Yeah, I'm on a voyage is how I feel about it all. Things to ever discover on and on. I just enjoy that. I enjoy hearing what others are discovering on their own voyages, its inspiring and something is always experienced and perhaps learned from it.

I'm simple. 8D I don't spend all my time with these thoughts....I'll put on my dunce cap and live the moment 8} as I'm a creature equipped to do. (Hey, but sometimes the dance is what it's all about.)But I wish to say that only on one basis do we have "limitations" -- that being what we decide to settle for in answers to anything. It seems to me at this point for myself at least. The "answers" don't give a hoot about us....so why hem ourselves into "sets" of current notions about anything, be it science, philosophies, religions, etc....? There is a vastness of new ideas and things to explore around every corner, it does go ever on an on (down from the door from which it began ) and what we think we "know" for certain in this moment of time in this diminesion we experience changes into ever more fascinating and new (new in our personal views) experiences.

I'm open to the point where my brain just about falls out (oops! Too late! ).....

For me, just imo, the concept of "God" is equal to "everything" = within everything, within all of us, within every rock and tree and creature and atom, etc.......all possibilities, no limitations, evolving, eternal. No certain type of church building of any kind is needed to express it, no man made religion even can but describe but a portion of it.


Split a piece of wood and it is there, lift a stone and you will find it.....



Seek and you shall find...yeah! Enjoy the voyage! B7


Oh well......a fun freeform ramble.....I'm like a kid in school, but when the door is flung open wide for recess I run out into the fresh air -- yahoooooo! 8D 8D 8}

 

[Sean]

This is an interesting topic.....mysteries of the universe. I believe in God, who created and is holding the universe together. Thiere is just too many unexplaned phenominons and mysteries to not believe in something/someone greater, who is behind it all. Human kind is just beginning to tap into the vastness of the univers. Even down-to-earth things like gravity are still yet to be explaned. We no it's there, we just don't know what exactly it is or how it works. It's just a invisible force in which atoms are atracted to one another, like magnatism.
There is still more mysterious phenominons like "dark matter". It's difficult to find and study because it's nearly undetectable. We do know that these particled are zooming through space and is able to penetrate matter, but we don't what they are or what they do.
We still have yet to uncover some of the mysteries that lie at the bottom of our oceans.
Human knowledge will continue to increase as we uncover the mysteries of the universe, but will there be an end to what can be discovered? Probably not.