First Animation Attempt In Over A Decade, Need Some Advice Please

[Brinks]

So I'm working on animation for a game idea I'm working on for my game dev portfolio. The game takes place in a notebook so the sprites are all meant to look like basic doodles and sketches. One of them is a basic stickman, and I've been attempting to work out a run cycle for him. The only background I have with animation is that I used to make a lot of flash stick figure movies around when I was in middle school but I wasn't super serious about it so I never got to a high level of proficiency.

Now here we are, 15 or so years later and I am struggling with this simple stickman's run cycle, but I am not experienced enough to know where the problems are and was hoping I could get some advice from people on here with more experience than me.

I'm using the video timeline and am working at 30 FPS

Attached is the GIF of the animation

The problems that I notice are that it looks far choppier than I would like, especially when it loops, and the figure looks more like he is galloping than running. Somehow the legs don't read to me like they are crossing each other, even though I have frames where they do just that.

Any advice would be amazing as I'm not sure how exactly to troubleshoot this.

 

[IamSam]

Hello and welcome to PSG.

After closely examining the GIF, I can see there are at least two problems One is that your motion dynamics are off and appear very unnatural. Second is that you have two frames (duplicates) of each movement. You use 24 frames/layers in your GIF. The doubled frames might be your attempt at slowing or smoothing the movement??? Each frame should depict movement. It's good to use more frames to make smaller movements which will smooth out the final motion, but don't duplicate frames.

As for motion dynamics...............that may take some explaining.

Here is a more accurate depiction of running motion.
This GIF is only 9 frames/layers.


One technique you can try is to use the GIF I posted as a template.
On layer one, create a new layer above it, then draw your stick figure.
(Note: I intentionally did not do the heads)


Repeat for each frame/layer until your done.





The great headless stick wonder! (Slowed down just a bit)

 

[Brinks]

Hello and welcome to PSG.

After closely examining the GIF, I can see there are at least two problems One is that your motion dynamics are off and appear very unnatural. Second is that you have two frames (duplicates) of each movement. You use 24 frames/layers in your GIF. The doubled frames might be your attempt at slowing or smoothing the movement??? Each frame should depict movement. It's good to use more frames to make smaller movements which will smooth out the final motion, but don't duplicate frames.

As for motion dynamics...............that may take some explaining.

Here is a more accurate depiction of running motion
.............

Hi, and thank you!

Yea I figured the motion wasn't quite right. I want the end result to be a fairly goofy run animation, hence the arms dangling behind but I should probably just start with a more standard run pose like in your examples until I better get the hang of it.

As for the duplicate frames, I had done some research about frame rate differences and animating in 1's vs 2's etc. From what I understood, animating in 2's at 30 FPS (which is the framerate that my video timeline is set to within photoshop) meant id only change the pose every other frame, so I duplicated each frame except for the leg crossing frames. Did I misunderstand the animating in 2s thing? The duplicates were also intended to slow the movement, to answer your question.

And thank you for the examples and for your feedback in general!

Side question, when I play my animation from the video timeline within photoshop, it is hideously choppy. Is this a known issue or are there some settings I should adjust to maybe alleviate this problem?

 

[IamSam]

Side question, when I play my animation from the video timeline within photoshop, it is hideously choppy. Is this a known issue or are there some settings I should adjust to maybe alleviate this problem?

Not a Ps issue, this is a technique issue. The problem is in two things, one is that you have too much movement between frames. And two, you have duplicated the frames. These two factors cause the choppiness.

 

[Brinks]

Not a Ps issue, this is a technique issue. The problem is in two things, one is that you have too much movement between frames. And two, you have duplicated the frames. These two factors cause the choppiness.

I thought animating in 2's and in 30 FPS meant you only change the drawing every other frame? I take it this is incorrect?

If duplicating frames is bad, then am I instead meant to just redraw the same pose or draw in slightly smaller movements?

The first version of this run cycle I did in 24 FPS and changed movements every frame without duplicates and it was way too fast so I definitely feel like I'm not fully understanding some aspect of how framerate factors into the actual animation workflow

 

[IamSam]

I thought animating in 2's and in 30 FPS meant you only change the drawing every other frame? I take it this is incorrect?

Well.............this depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to eliminate the choppiness, then this statement is correct.

If duplicating frames is bad, then am I instead meant to just redraw the same pose or draw in slightly smaller movements?

Correct!!

Which is choppier?
A
Larger movements, less frames.


B
Smaller movements, more frames.


C
Video animations.

 

[Brinks]

Well.............this depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to eliminate the choppiness, then this statement is correct.


Correct!!

Which is choppier?
A
Larger movements, less frames.
View attachment 130174

B
Smaller movements, more frames.
View attachment 130175

C
Video animations.
View attachment 130176
View attachment 130180

What is the difference between examples B and C?

Also I'm still not understanding the animating in 2's thing. I have replaced all the duplicate frames with more subtle, in-between frames and the animation is unreadably fast when played back in photoshop, and is only slightly better when I save it as a gif and view it that way.

I'm assuming the issue is that some of the in-between frames are unnecessary and are muddying up what is meant to be a snappier transition between poses?

 

[IamSam]

What is the difference between examples B and C?

Errrr........B is smaller movements and more frames made with frame animation, and C is a video animation made with video timeline.

Also I'm still not understanding the animating in 2's thing. I have replaced all the duplicate frames with more subtle, in-between frames and the animation is unreadably fast when played back in photoshop, and is only slightly better when I save it as a gif and view it that way.

Then slow it down.


Select all frames an change the speed.

I'm assuming the issue is that some of the in-between frames are unnecessary and are muddying up what is meant to be a snappier transition between poses?

No. I really feel that the problem here is in the mechanics....................the movement is just not natural looking.

Let's look......

Frame 1
Note the body, head, and pelvic location marked with guidelines.


Frame 4
Head is now down and back. Pelvis is down and forward. Body is leaning back and down.


Frame 12
Head is further down and pelvis is further down and forward. Body is leaning further back (to vertical) and down.


Frame 16
The body, head, and pelvis are extremely out of position from where they started.
Remember, frame 16 jumps right back to frame 1..............see how far apart they are?


Now compare with more natural motion dynamics.
Slight up and down bounce along the same plane but everything stays in the same positions.


Note the similar position between the first frame and the last frame.
The first frame is a continuation of motion from the last frame.
First frame


Last frame


The running or even walking stick man is a difficult animation even for a seasoned animator because body motion dynamics are difficult to mimic. If you want to continue with a stick man animation project, I think you may want to start from scratch. Or maybe try a ball animation until you get the hang of it!

 

[Brinks]

Errrr........B is smaller movements and more frames made with frame animation, and C is a video animation made with video timeline.

Umm I thought the only difference between the frame by frame timeline and the video timeline was in the workflow. I thought the end result would be the same. I guess I don't understand why example C with the video timeline is substantially smoother looking than B.

Then slow it down.
View attachment 130273

Select all frames an change the speed.
View attachment 130275

My project is with the video timeline and video layers so I thought my only metric for the speed of the animation was the framerate of the whole project. Which is set to 30 FPS. I guess I'm not married to that framerate, but I was worried if it could cause more work/problems for myself in the future by having different framerates for different animations when I start importing them into Unity.

No. I really feel that the problem here is in the mechanics....................the movement is just not natural looking.

Let's look......

Frame 1
Note the body, head, and pelvic location marked with guidelines.
View attachment 130280

Frame 4
Head is now down and back. Pelvis is down and forward. Body is leaning back and down.
View attachment 130281

Frame 12
Head is further down and pelvis is further down and forward. Body is leaning further back (to vertical) and down.
View attachment 130282

Frame 16
The body, head, and pelvis are extremely out of position from where they started.
Remember, frame 16 jumps right back to frame 1..............see how far apart they are?
View attachment 130283

Now compare with more natural motion dynamics.
Slight up and down bounce along the same plane but everything stays in the same positions.
View attachment 130284

Note the similar position between the first frame and the last frame.
The first frame is a continuation of motion from the last frame.
First frame
View attachment 130286

Last frame
View attachment 130287

The running or even walking stick man is a difficult animation even for a seasoned animator because body motion dynamics are difficult to mimic. If you want to continue with a stick man animation project, I think you may want to start from scratch. Or maybe try a ball animation until you get the hang of it!

Wow alright, I completely understand what you mean now about the motion dynamics. The guidelines really put into perspective how awfully I have everything lined up.

When I was doing the drawings, one of the thoughts I had was that I don't need to worry too hard about keeping everything super lined up because its supposed to look kinda wacky and cartoonish. I didn't realize how much that detracted from the readability of the animation. Thank you for pointing it out like that as I think I finally understand lol

And yea I thought stick figure stuff would be super easy. I at least remember it being pretty easy as a kid when I was making little flash movies of stickmen fighting each other, but I kinda wonder now if my animations back then were a lot worse than I remember them being.

Definitely gonna start a fresh file for this one and pay more attention to how the body and everything lines up between frames.

 

[IamSam]

Umm I thought the only difference between the frame by frame timeline and the video timeline was in the workflow.

Yes, there's no doubt that the workflow is very different and both have their advantages in certain applications. I work almost exclusively in video timeline or VT as it's a more effective and simple way to animate.

I thought the end result would be the same.

Well, again you're half right. VT renders into frames when exported.

My project is with the video timeline....

Ahhhhhh.....I did not realize this! Let me take a look at that and I'll get back to you.

I thought my only metric for the speed of the animation was the framerate of the whole project. Which is set to 30 FPS.

OK, let me do some checking here. All my projects are set to 30FPS but I've read that 60 FPS is better for smother animations........again, I will check on this since it's been awhile!

However, I can vary the speeds of the animation based on the allotted amount of time I assign each movement in the VT.
Note below, the object moves very fast at first, then slows down. This GIF was created at 30 FPS.



I can even vary the speeds of two different objects in the same GIF............30 FPS.

 

[Brinks]

Well, again you're half right. VT renders into frames when exported.

Wait I thought both versions render into frames when exported? Also, aren't you technically working in frames in either timeline?

I guess I am still confused about the major differences between the 2. The Photoshop frame by frame timeline is pretty similar to how I used to animate when I was kid using Alligator Flash Designer. I don't think you had layers but each picture/canvas/frame had an individual drop down that let you select how long the picture would play before moving to the next one.

But from the bit of research I did before starting this project, it seemed like I would be better off learning to use the video timeline for my game animations and learn to work and animate within a single framerate rather than being able to change the delay of every frame.

There seems to be a lot less info on using the VT the way I am using it though. Most of the videos ive seen of it are with animation similar to the examples you've shown me, rather than basically animating characters. Which has made me question whether I should be using the video timeline lol

Ahhhhhh.....I did not realize this! Let me take a look at that and I'll get back to you.


OK, let me do some checking here. All my projects are set to 30FPS but I've read that 60 FPS is better for smother animations........again, I will check on this since it's been awhile!

Yea I've read that too but I figured with my experience level, and also the sketch/doodle oriented art style of my game, 60 might not be necessary and might be a lot more work on top of that compared to 30.

However, I can vary the speeds of the animation based on the allotted amount of time I assign each movement in the VT.
Note below, the object moves very fast at first, then slows down. This GIF was created at 30 FPS.

View attachment 130349

I can even vary the speeds of two different objects in the same GIF............30 FPS.
View attachment 130350

Hmmm this definitely makes me feel like I have no clue how the VT works. These seem like you have shapes and can apply motion paths to them or something?

Whereas the way I've been using the VT, I explained to my girlfriend that its like a flipbook where I have to hand draw every page of the flipbook and the framerate of the project controls how fast the flipbook is being flipped through. Which is why I did a lot of duplication of frames when it was too fast because in a flipbook, if you wanted the pose on one of the pages to linger more than others, then you would just redraw that pose on multiple pages.

 

[IamSam]

Also, aren't you technically working in frames in either timeline?

Not really. In VT, you work with keyframes which are what's used for movement. The finished product will render/export as frames.

Video Timeline animation
This is the VT of the animation above...........note there are only 3 layers in the layers panel.
The entire animation is created in the timeline with keyframes and moving the objects with the Move Tool.
There is only a BG layer and two object layers in the layers panel.


If we examine the same VT created GIF above, after export, it will have frames.....161 frames to be exact.
So when working with the VT, you don't have to mess with frames.........only keyframes.


Frame Animation
Note frames have corresponding layers in the layers panel.
Animation or movement is created with layers and frames. You have to create each frame/layer.

There seems to be a lot less info on using the VT the way I am using it though.

Yep, I tried to view your GIF in VT but was unsuccessful. It would seem that I would need your PSD file to view it properly so I'm not able to see exactly how you were using it.

Whereas the way I've been using the VT, I explained to my girlfriend that its like a flipbook where I have to hand draw every page of the flipbook and the framerate of the project controls how fast the flipbook is being flipped through.

Again, not sure how you are using VT..................but it does not work like the Frame Animation which does work like a "flip book". In both, the speed of the animation has more to do with movement and the number of frames.

Which is why I did a lot of duplication of frames when it was too fast because in a flipbook, if you wanted the pose on one of the pages to linger more than others, then you would just redraw that pose on multiple pages.

As I stated in post #8, speed is controlled by increasing the delay rate. You are right about pausing motion, that can be done with added frames.............however, there's no need to do that when you can just increase the delay of that individual frame to stop/pause the motion. As I failed to mention that each frames delay can be adjusted individually.

 

[Brinks]

Not really. In VT, you work with keyframes which are what's used for movement. The finished product will render/export as frames.

Interesting. I haven't been using the keyframe feature(I don't think it would be useful for my application) but I feel like I still have been working with frames in the same way as if I were using the frame by frame timeline. It's just faster because I don't have to mess with any new layers every frame. I just finish drawing a frame and then hit the arrow key to move onto the next frame and repeat til I'm done.

I had hotkeyed the Duplicate Frame option to one of the buttons on my drawing tablet's pen so I could make this process faster when I was doing the run cycle where I thought I needed to duplicate most of the frames to slow down the movement.

Video Timeline animation
This is the VT of the animation above...........note there are only 3 layers in the layers panel.
The entire animation is created in the timeline with keyframes and moving the objects with the Move Tool.
There is only a BG layer and two object layers in the layers panel.
View attachment 130370

If we examine the same VT created GIF above, after export, it will have frames.....161 frames to be exact.
So when working with the VT, you don't have to mess with frames.........only keyframes.
View attachment 130373

Frame Animation
Note frames have corresponding layers in the layers panel.
Animation or movement is created with layers and frames. You have to create each frame/layer.
View attachment 130371

Yea that's not exactly how I've used the VT for my project. I just create a new blank video layer, go to the first frame, and then begin drawing over it. Frame by Frame seems way more tedious to animate with given that you needed to make a new layer for every frame and such on top of messing with toggling the visibility of certain layers on certain frames.

Yep, I tried to view your GIF in VT but was unsuccessful. It would seem that I would need your PSD file to view it properly so I'm not able to see exactly how you were using it.

I can just attach a copy of my PSD file to this post so it's more clear

Again, not sure how you are using VT..................but it does not work like the Frame Animation which does work like a "flip book". In both, the speed of the animation has more to do with movement and the number of frames.


As I stated in post #8, speed is controlled by increasing the delay rate. You are right about pausing motion, that can be done with added frames.............however, there's no need to do that when you can just increase the delay of that individual frame to stop/pause the motion. As I failed to mention that each frames delay can be adjusted individually.

I'm still confused by this cuz I feel like the way I've been using it has been exactly like a flipbook, where the video layer is the flipbook, and the framerate of the entire project (30FPS in my case) is akin to the speed the flipbook is being flipped through

Whereas for frame by frame, this is also true but there are some differences, since with an actual flipbook, you cant really vary the speed youre flipping through on an individual page level. So the benefit of frame by frame being able to vary how much time is spent on each frame of the animation makes it less like a flipbook than how I've been using the VT if I'm understanding all these things correctly.

Also from what I've read about both timelines and what I know of certain video game animations (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has been my main source of reference as it's very easy to find the individual animations online and scrub through them one frame at a time, on top of them being really high quality animations in most cases) as well as your advice in this thread about the duplicating frames and such, it seems like I'd be better off learning to think and animate completely in a flipbook mindset(where I can't directly decide how long each pose/frame lingers for), but also do so without duplicating any frames and instead doing smaller and more subtle transitions between frame poses when I want smaller or slower movements to take place.

Sorry for the massive run on sentence. I hope I worded that clear enough lol

 

[IamSam]

OK. I like to have NEVER figured out how you were doing this!!! But, now that I have figured it out and have seen how you created your running stickman using VT and an altered video layer, I have a few observations.
I was so confused about your speed problem but now that I have seen your technique and file, I figured out why your playback is so fast.

It's because you only used 18 frames in a document you set for 30 FPS! Red arrow!
Then you changed the timeline to a 23 FPS using the "End of work area" stop! Purple arrow!
If you want the final product to be 30FPS, then you have to use all 30 frames in that one second period!
Right now, your playback is at 27.65 FPS with 18 frames in less than one second!

it seems like I'd be better off learning to think and animate completely in a flipbook mindset

I completely agree! And this is why you need to be using "frame animation" and (EDIT) manual onion skinning if you plan on drawing your animations! Do you know what onion skinning is? NOTE: Onion skins is only available in the VT, and not in the frame animation timeline.......it would have to be done manually.

Even though it works and I realize you may think that the VT is easier to work with, I really feel you should start out by using "Frame Animation". This is only my advice and I want you to use whichever method works out for you! I will do my best to help you out!

 

[IamSam]

Let me see if I can shed some light on frame rate.

This GIF is set to 24FPS and I only used 24 frames equaling 1 second.
The keyframes, which is what is used to show movement, are now evenly spread out over 1 second/24 frames.
See how fast it moves!

VT

Frames


This is the same GIF set to 24FPS and I used 72 frames equaling 3 seconds.
The keyframes, which is what is used to show movement, are now evenly spread out over 3 seconds/72 frames.
See how its slowed down! (I did change where the ball was hitting and gave it a stroke)

VT

Frames (Couldn't fit them all in!)


So, while the FPS setting depicts the playback speed of the final product and the numer of frame Ps alots you to work with, the speed of the animation is determined by the number of frames and the movement between frames.

 

[Brinks]

OK. I like to have NEVER figured out how you were doing this!!! But, now that I have figured it out and have seen how you created your running stickman using VT and an altered video layer, I have a few observations.
I was so confused about your speed problem but now that I have seen your technique and file, I figured out why your playback is so fast.

It's because you only used 18 frames in a document you set for 30 FPS! Red arrow!
Then you changed the timeline to a 23 FPS using the "End of work area" stop! Purple arrow!
If you want the final product to be 30FPS, then you have to use all 30 frames in that one second period!
Right now, your playback is at 27.65 FPS with 18 frames in less than one second!

I'm glad we're mostly on the same page now lmao

Though I still am confused. Why would the framerate of playback change if I had animations shorter than the chosen framerate? And if that's how it works, then why doesn't the displayed framerate in green text at the bottom left of the timeline change when you adjust the end of work area thing?

Also if not using all the frames in the chosen framerate altered the framerate of playback, such as it playing at 27.65 FPS rather than 30, then that would mean my drawing would be slower than it should rather than faster since 27 is less frames to show in the same amount of time.

I'm just confused how the length of my animation would alter the framerate, when the framerate is just the rate at which each frame is being shown on screen. So an animation that is comprised of 60 frames being played at 30FPS would run at exactly the same rate as a 30 frame animation being played at 30FPS. The only difference would be the total duration since the 60 frame animation would take 2 sec to play at 30FPS vs. the 30 frame animation taking 1 sec to play at 30FPS

Is this a restriction of using the VT the way I am? That the framerate I choose for the project doesn't matter if the total frames of my animation are less than the framerate?
Or is this just related to me shortening the work area part of the timeline?

View attachment 130418


I completely agree! And this is why you need to be using "frame animation" and onion skinning if you plan on drawing your animations! Do you know what onion skinning is? NOTE: You can use onion skins in the VT as well.

Even though it works and I realize you may think that the VT is easier to work with, I really feel you should start out by using "Frame Animation". This is only my advice and I want you to use whichever method works out for you! I will do my best to help you out!

Yea I've been using the onion skin feature while doing my animations so I could reference the previous frame while drawing.

Hmmmm, is frame by frame better for my purposes than VT? Now that we're on the same page about how I've been using the VT, what are the main pros/cons of the 2 for what I'd be doing with them?

 

[Brinks]

Let me see if I can shed some light on frame rate.

This GIF is set to 24FPS and I only used 24 frames equaling 1 second.
The keyframes, which is what is used to show movement, are now evenly spread out over 1 second/24 frames.
See how fast it moves!
View attachment 130440
VT
View attachment 130446
Frames
View attachment 130447

This is the same GIF set to 24FPS and I used 72 frames equaling 3 seconds.
The keyframes, which is what is used to show movement, are now evenly spread out over 3 seconds/72 frames.
See how its slowed down! (I did change where the ball was hitting and gave it a stroke)
View attachment 130444
VT
View attachment 130445
Frames (Couldn't fit them all in!)
View attachment 130448

So, while the FPS setting depicts the playback speed of the final product and the numer of frame Ps alots you to work with, the speed of the animation is determined by the number of frames and the movement between frames.

Yea the examples make sense for what I know of framerate and such. Like I get that the same animation of a ball going from point A to B would be much slower if you spread it out over more time compared to the first example only being 1 sec long. But I don't get how that relates to my issue exactly. Cuz if you chose 24FPS, created the same animation of the ball, but animated it in 16 frames, it would obviously be a faster animation cuz its only 16 frames long but those 16 frames would still play at a rate of 24FPS, the same as if you had 24 or 48 or any other number of them. Obviously the difference would be in how it reads to the viewer.

So is the takeaway that my run animation looks choppy because the leaps in the poses between frames are too large, given the framerate that my animation is running at? And the solution is to either make more subtle transitions between poses, or to lower the framerate so that my shorter animations take slightly more time to play back, effectively slowing down the animation?

 

[IamSam]

Though I still am confused. Why would the framerate of playback change if I had animations shorter than the chosen framerate?

The framerate changed when you moved the end stop 23fps.........Ps was trying to find middle ground between the 30FPS preset and the end stop.

then why doesn't the displayed framerate in green text at the bottom left of the timeline change when you adjust the end of work area thing?

It does............that's what I meant when I said your animation was playing back at 27.65FPS.
When I snapped this screenshot, it was at 27.87

Also if not using all the frames in the chosen framerate altered the framerate of playback, such as it playing at 27.65 FPS rather than 30, then that would mean my drawing would be slower than it should rather than faster since 27 is less frames to show in the same amount of time.

Your not getting the point here................the FPS has nothing to do with the speed of the animation.......you need to let that go! LOL!! The speed of the animation is determined by the number of and movement of the frames. In this case you were only using 18 frames in 23FPS space. I clearly demonstrate this in post #15.

I'm just confused how the length of my animation would alter the framerate, when the framerate is just the rate at which each frame is being shown on screen.

Again.............you were only using 18 frames in 23FPS space.

So an animation that is comprised of 60 frames being played at 30FPS would run at exactly the same rate as a 30 frame animation being played at 30FPS.

YES!!!

The only difference would be the total duration since the 60 frame animation would take 2 sec to play at 30FPS vs. the 30 frame animation taking 1 sec to play at 30FPS

YES!!!

Is this a restriction of using the VT the way I am?

Well yes and no. It is a restriction when using it like you have been...........not that you are doing anything wrong, you're just not understanding the basics of animation. But it's not a restriction if used properly.

That the framerate I choose for the project doesn't matter if the total frames of my animation are less than the framerate?

CORRECT!!!!! The speed of the animation is determined by the number of and movement of the frames.

Hmmmm, is frame by frame better for my purposes than VT?

In my honest opinion, yes.

Now that we're on the same page about how I've been using the VT, what are the main pros/cons of the 2 for what I'd be doing with them?

There's no doubt that VT has more options and it's probably a better choice for animation via keyframes, but for straight up stop frame animation like you're attempting, frame animation is the better way to go. With frame animation, you will learn about movement and how it affects animation speed. The primary difference is that you create the animation in layers first, then add to the frame animation timeline.

Cuz if you chose 24FPS, created the same animation of the ball, but animated it in 16 frames, it would obviously be a faster animation cuz its only 16 frames long but those 16 frames would still play at a rate of 24FPS, the same as if you had 24 or 48 or any other number of them. Obviously the difference would be in how it reads to the viewer.

Correct...........it seems like you're getting it.

So is the takeaway that my run animation looks choppy because the leaps in the poses between frames are too large, given the framerate that my animation is running at?

Correct.

And the solution is to either make more subtle transitions between poses,

Yep!

or to lower the framerate so that my shorter animations take slightly more time to play back, effectively slowing down the animation?

NO! Frame rate has nothing to do with the speed of the animation! The speed of the animation is determined by the number of and movement of the frames.

I'm not at all upset here but I suggest that before you make any further posts...........you need to do some experimentation with what has been stated here in this thread...........I have explained and given you absolute examples and you seem to be stuck on the frame rate. You need to experience this for yourself.

 

[Brinks]

The framerate changed when you moved the end stop 23fps.........Ps was trying to find middle ground between the 30FPS preset and the end stop.

No that doesn't actually change the framerate. That only affects the duration of the section you want to play back. That's why the numbers over that section are listed with an "f" next to them cuz it only is a measure of the number of frames long that the timeline is if that makes sense. Also, I moved that "end of work area stop" around when I was drawing so that when I played back my timeline, it would only loop the frames that I had actually drawn on instead of having some of the blank ones be part of the playback.

It does............that's what I meant when I said your animation was playing back at 27.65FPS.
When I snapped this screenshot, it was at 27.87
View attachment 130463

So I was pretty sure before but after I've tested it a few times, I'm pretty certain the number only turns red and goes down due to lag at runtime. I had previously seen it drop to 20 at one point after a couple loops on one of my earlier versions and my current one I've seen spike to ~29 and a decimal for a brief moment before it normalized at 30 for the next 10 seconds before I stopped playback. And all of those instances were with a timeline that was far less than 30 frames

Your not getting the point here................the FPS has nothing to do with the speed of the animation.......you need to let that go! LOL!! The speed of the animation is determined by the number of and movement of the frames. In this case you were only using 18 frames in 23FPS space. I clearly demonstrate this in post #15.

I believe we are both using the word speed and it's synonyms to refer to different things. FPS literally does affect the speed of the animation if you dont change any other aspect of the animation. The easy way to understand this (at least for me) is to exaggerate the numbers:

A 10 frame long animation, being played at 10 FPS is going to obviously take one full second to play the entire animation one time through

Now for that same 10 frame animation, let's say you just changed the framerate to 100 FPS and kept everything else the same, it will then play 10 times through in the span of a full second. Because it has to show 100 frames to the screen in a single second.

For the first example, that animation would obviously be "slower", in the sense that it would take more time for the animation to finish playing one time through.

And for the second example, it would be a blazingly fast animation because it would take a tenth of a second to play the entire animation one time through.

That's what I mean when I've been saying words like faster or slower or when talking about the speed of the animations

There's no doubt that VT has more options and it's probably a better choice for animation via keyframes, but for straight up stop frame animation like you're attempting, frame animation is the better way to go. With frame animation, you will learn about movement and how it affects animation speed. The primary difference is that you create the animation in layers first, then add to the frame animation timeline.

Hopefully I'm not sounding contrarian or stubborn, but wouldn't I still learn about movement and how it affects the speed too? Especially if in the VT, I don't have the option of changing the individual frame delay and instead would have to understand timing much more?

NO! Frame rate has nothing to do with the speed of the animation! The speed of the animation is determined by the number of and movement of the frames.

I'm not at all upset here but I suggest that before you make any further posts...........you need to do some experimentation with what has been stated here in this thread...........I have explained and given you absolute examples and you seem to be stuck on the frame rate. You need to experience this for yourself.

Hopefully we are on the same page now about framerate and such and what I've meant when talking about speed and whether the animation is fast or slow. I think my problem was definitely because of some of the other things you've mentioned in your posts. I had too many large transitions between poses and it made for a choppier animation.

I've since redrawn the run cycle now, after taking a character's run cycle in Smash Ultimate and studying it one frame at a time and then sketching the leg position for each frame in my sketchbook and then loosely trying to emulate it in my timeline in PS.
It helped me get a better understanding of the path that each leg follows during a normal run which I don't think I was fully grasping before.

That combined with a lot of what you've said here(I used a vertical guide to make sure my hip joint was lined up in all the frames and paid more attention to the torso line) I think my current animation is starting to look much better

It's only at 15FPS cuz I wanted to get it to look smooth at a slower playback speed before I bump it up to 30FPS and tweak it a bit more to smoothen it out at that framerate

It still isn't perfect. I think I need to redraw the head and tweak the length of my legs during some frames and maybe add a few more in between's because it still snaps back to the first frame more than I want it to when it loops but here it is:

 

[IamSam]

I believe we are both using the word speed and it's synonyms to refer to different things. FPS literally does affect the speed of the animation if you dont change any other aspect of the animation. The easy way to understand this (at least for me) is to exaggerate the numbers:

A 10 frame long animation, being played at 10 FPS is going to obviously take one full second to play the entire animation one time through

Now for that same 10 frame animation, let's say you just changed the framerate to 100 FPS and kept everything else the same, it will then play 10 times through in the span of a full second. Because it has to show 100 frames to the screen in a single second.

For the first example, that animation would obviously be "slower", in the sense that it would take more time for the animation to finish playing one time through.

And for the second example, it would be a blazingly fast animation because it would take a tenth of a second to play the entire animation one time through.

That's what I mean when I've been saying words like faster or slower or when talking about the speed of the animations

Correct! We have always been on the same page here!

Your almost there!!! Your still not thinking in terms of animation speed. You're stuck on framerate in controlling animation speed and I'm saying, while you are right, please stop and try to think about it differently!

So here's my question.................what happens when your framerate is set to 10fps and you use 50 frames for your animation? So you have 50 frames that will play in 5 seconds..........right?

10FPS - 10 frames = 1sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 20 frames = 2sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 30 frames = 3sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 40 frames = 4sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 50 frames = 5sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 100 frames = 10sec animation cycle.
10FPS - 300 frames = 30sec animation cycle.

Below we are using 10FPS
So let's say an animated ball rolls from point A to point B in 10 frames...........that will take the ball 1 second for movement per animation cycle! That's a very fast moving animation cycle!
Take the same ball animation moving from point A to point B in 100 frames.........that will take the ball 10 seconds for movement per animation cycle. The ball movement slows down.
Now take the same ball animation moving from point A to point B in 300 frames........that will take the ball 30 seconds for movement per animation cycle. The ball slows down much more.

Regardless of framerate, the animation speed is determined by the number of frames and movement of the animation within the frames.

No that doesn't actually change the framerate. That only affects the duration of the section you want to play back. That's why the numbers over that section are listed with an "f" next to them cuz it only is a measure of the number of frames long that the timeline is if that makes sense.

If your framerate is set to 30FPS and you only use 23 frames..............what does this do to your animation cycle?

30FPS - 30 frames = 1sec animation cycle

30FPS - 23 frames = ???? Is your animation cycle faster than 1 sec or slower?

If Ps only has 23 frames to cycle in a 1 second time frame, would this affect the playback speed? If Ps is trying to run at 30FPS and the stop is set at 23 frames, how might this affect playback? Would it be faster or slower?