Another Smart Object resizing problem, driving me nuts! :(

[timoat]

HI guys, Im having a real problem with resizing an image to a smaller size without loosing quality.

The image on the right is from a Sony A7RIV, 350 p/inch.
I want to paste it in a smaller A4 image, that I create so that its the same size. (350 p/inch)
The Print destination is an Epson P900

So in my original image, the one on the left, I first duplicate the layer, then I convert that to a smart object, then I copy that in to the new smaller A4 .

All good, it looks the same, but now the image is huge of course, so I resize it, (still as a smart object). My desired size is 10x14 cm.

You can see that I haven't rasterized, the image on the right is still the same smart object that I copied from the original file on the left.

I've tried different interpolation settings, first it was set to Bicubic automatic, then I set it to bicubic sharpening, bc it said it was best when making sizes smaller. Im still getting quality loss. Shouldn't they look identical if they are still smart objects, regardless of magnification?

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[timoat]

Second image. Am I expecting too much?
,

 

[thebestcpu]

Hi @timoat

I may not understand the exact details of what you are doing from one image to the other, yet I think the root cause is that the destination image is not high enough resolution.
I took your first post image and cut a small section on the right side image and place in on the left side. You can see that the original has a much finer pixel spacing than that image on the right.

The Smart Object is doing its job just fine for the number of pixels in which you are fitting the image. Up the resolution of your target image by a factor of 4 or so and then they will match much better.

BTW - the eye can only percieve about 300 dpi from 12 inches away so another consideration is what is the final size and the viewing distance of the final image. If you are zooming in to a level that the human eye cannot resolve, thatis pixel peeping and it may not be a real issue you are trying to correct

Just some quick thoughts
John Wheeler

 

[thebestcpu]

Hi @timoat

As a side note, I also have a p900 and the ideal image PPI to present to the image is either 360 or 720. 360 should be fine. At that resolution, the printer is not doing some internal resizing for you. You had mentioned 350 ppi and did not know if that was a typo. This is certainly not your main issue, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I had some additional thoughts upon rereading your post since I may have misunderstood your use of the word "copy." So, the issue may be different than I had imagined.

If I were creating an A4 document, here are my steps.

Create the A4 document at 360 DPI into which you want to insert your Sony Image.

With the A4, there read at the correct final resolution, use the command File > Place Embedded of the Sony File. This will place a Smart Object over your A4 image, ready to transform the size to precisely for scaling and placement. It will reduce the PPI of the smart object to match the PPI of the A4.

Yes, the resolution of your Sony image is reduced, yet it is done in the best possible way down to 360 ppi. If you are zooming in so far that it bothers you, create your initial A4 document at 720 ppi before you use the File > Place Embedded command to bring in the Sony Image. That will work fine is input to the p900 as well.

Of course, when you print, make sure you are using the high-quality setting for 1440dpi photo resolution (higher does not help much and makes the print time horrendously long.

Give these steps a try and see if they solve your problem. If this does not fit exactly what you need, just keep asking questions and provide more details on the steps you are taking.

Hope the incremental information is helpful
John Wheeler

 

[timoat]

Hi @timoat

I may not understand the exact details of what you are doing from one image to the other, yet I think the root cause is that the destination image is not high enough resolution.
I took your first post image and cut a small section on the right side image and place in on the left side. You can see that the original has a much finer pixel spacing than that image on the right.

The Smart Object is doing its job just fine for the number of pixels in which you are fitting the image. Up the resolution of your target image by a factor of 4 or so and then they will match much better.

BTW - the eye can only percieve about 300 dpi from 12 inches away so another consideration is what is the final size and the viewing distance of the final image. If you are zooming in to a level that the human eye cannot resolve, thatis pixel peeping and it may not be a real issue you are trying to correct

Just some quick thoughts
John Wheeler

View attachment 149777

Thank you for the reply! I tried to quadrupel the size df the original (350) to 1400 p/inch

Hi @timoat

As a side note, I also have a p900 and the ideal image PPI to present to the image is either 360 or 720. 360 should be fine. At that resolution, the printer is not doing some internal resizing for you. You had mentioned 350 ppi and did not know if that was a typo. This is certainly not your main issue, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I had some additional thoughts upon rereading your post since I may have misunderstood your use of the word "copy." So, the issue may be different than I had imagined.

If I were creating an A4 document, here are my steps.

Create the A4 document at 360 DPI into which you want to insert your Sony Image.

With the A4, there read at the correct final resolution, use the command File > Place Embedded of the Sony File. This will place a Smart Object over your A4 image, ready to transform the size to precisely for scaling and placement. It will reduce the PPI of the smart object to match the PPI of the A4.

Yes, the resolution of your Sony image is reduced, yet it is done in the best possible way down to 360 ppi. If you are zooming in so far that it bothers you, create your initial A4 document at 720 ppi before you use the File > Place Embedded command to bring in the Sony Image. That will work fine is input to the p900 as well.

Of course, when you print, make sure you are using the high-quality setting for 1440dpi photo resolution (higher does not help much and makes the print time horrendously long.

Give these steps a try and see if they solve your problem. If this does not fit exactly what you need, just keep asking questions and provide more details on the steps you are taking.

Hope the incremental information is helpful
John Wheeler

Thank you for the thoughtfull reply! I did what you suggested and made an A4 that was 1400 ppi, and that worked, the pixel peeping showed no difference so thank you for that! I will use your method tomorrow and give it a go!

Speaking of the P900, how are you liking it? This is my second one, I think the print quality is amazing and the ink economy very good. I bought it specifically to print on poster board, but I have run in to a problem there, if i set the PQ to Max, the printer will print fine until the very last inch, then it seems the printhead goes over the same area multiple times until a groove is cut in to the print, destroying it. it only happens with max quality though, and some photos ive run through topaz. here is a video i took of it.
I bought the 3 year cover plus plan so I can get it fixed, its just such a hassle, and I cant tell the diff between standard and max anyway! I might fix it after the summer. I need it, i print my artwork and sell it to tourists.

 

[thebestcpu]

Thank you for the reply! I tried to quadrupel the size df the original (350) to 1400 p/inch

Thank you for the thoughtfull reply! I did what you suggested and made an A4 that was 1400 ppi, and that worked, the pixel peeping showed no difference so thank you for that! I will use your method tomorrow and give it a go!

Speaking of the P900, how are you liking it? This is my second one, I think the print quality is amazing and the ink economy very good. I bought it specifically to print on poster board, but I have run in to a problem there, if i set the PQ to Max, the printer will print fine until the very last inch, then it seems the printhead goes over the same area multiple times until a groove is cut in to the print, destroying it. it only happens with max quality though, and some photos ive run through topaz. here is a video i took of it.
I bought the 3 year cover plus plan so I can get it fixed, its just such a hassle, and I cant tell the diff between standard and max anyway! I might fix it after the summer. I need it, i print my artwork and sell it to tourists.

Hi @timoat
First, there are two important resolution numbers. The first is the PPI (pixels per inch) of the image. The best for the P900 is 360 or 720. Anything higher will not make a difference and will be resampled to a lower number by the printer. Not a big deal. I understand the printer resampling algorithm is "nearest neighbor," which is not the best algorithm.

Then, the dpi or dots per inch number is used for the printer's "resolution." I put the resolution in quotes because it relates more to the number of ink droplets and the different droplet sizes the Epson can do from up to nine of the 10 inks on a photo. So, the higher dpi numbers are more about their ink spray pattern to generate colors rather than representing actual images. From many sources, the 1440 dpi (or high quality setting) is visually not different as the 5760 dpi mode as seen by the eye. I am doing some experiments to eke out what is going on, yet I am confident in what I have already shared above.

I am enjoying the printer and have no issues other than wi-fi disconnects. Love the images. Yet, I am still a newbie as far as numbers or prints are concerned. Have enjoyed the large 17x22 prints and have given many away.

No head strike problems as you have seen. Often, such issues have to do with the printer's proper settings (e.g., paper type settings) so that the head distance is correct for the paper. That would be the first place that I would look. You can load paper types using the Epson Media Installer, and today's correct name, I believe, is Epson Ultra Premium Matte for the weight and thickness of matte paper if you were using the setting for the regular matte paper (1/2 as thick) that could cause some problems.

The other issue is if the paper was not flat going in or out. It does not take much paper curvature to push it closer to the print head. So the paper going in should not have a curl, and the paper exit should have the plastic extension all the way out so the paper is not hanging over any edge.

I did see one post from long ago that said the matte paper swelled with too much ink and could cause that problem, so I cannot confirm if it was just a one-off or accurate. You want the correct ink setting for that paper type to avoid ink-related issues.

One last note: those archival paper matte were not archival papers. Archival paper usually means that it is without optical brighteners, and the whiteness will fade out over time with such papers. That is probably why Epson changed the name, as it was misleading as it did (and does) contain optical brighteners.

That would be my quick thoughts and observations
John Wheeler