AI - good or bad?

[ushere]

rather than hijack another thread, feel free to praise or damn ;-)

i come from a tv / video background where creating a blue screen was only possible using $100K of equipment, and even then still had a halo. now, pulling a green screen is almost obsolete, simply masking the subject is almost a button push away.
times change, and so does peoples perception of what a 'professional' is. i think nowadays a professional, in corporate terms at least, is someone who knows the fastest, cheapest answer to any given problem - be it prompting chat gpt for writing an intro, to removing objects with ai.
ah for the good old days... were they?

so please, feel free to comment, is AI in Photoshop good or bad?

 

[IamSam]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not trying to offend anyone! I just have very strong opinions about AI and how it's affecting our world. It's just an opinion and I'm very open to any and all discussions on the matter!

times change, and so does peoples perception of what a 'professional' is.

As it relates to AI and Ps, any 5 year old can be called a professional. So I would agree with you here with the exception that just calling someone a professional does not mean that they are. I would never refer to the average Joe who uses AI assisted Ps to accomplish edits as a professional. I think a better description would be "functionally inept". No skill or experience required, all one really needs is a hand/finger to operate a mouse and make a few clicks.

i think nowadays a professional, in corporate terms at least, is someone who knows the fastest, cheapest answer to any given problem - be it prompting chat gpt for writing an intro, to removing objects with ai

I again agree! As I've stated before, using AI assist in Ps is a means to an end but it requires no skill. Does it help with a workflow, it most certainly could!
So a person accomplishes an education in design and looks for work. Alas, with the exponential advances in AI, there is no longer a need for an educated designer, any minimum wage employee can use AI assisted software to accomplish anything the designer could faster and better. Faster and better than a writer. Faster and better than an artist. Faster and better than an engineer. Faster and better than a musician. Faster and better than................well, you pick a profession.

Where is a persons sense of accomplishment and self respect if absolutely no skill is needed to use AI? Where will human kinds sense of worth end up if AI renders all aspects of human achievement useless? Someone said it's the end result that matters...................no truer words have ever been spoken when it comes to the mindless use of AI.

ah for the good old days... were they?

Absolutely!!!! In those days we had talented artists who worked hard for their craft that we could admire and strive to emulate! What do we have now? "Gee, I hope I can click a mouse as good as that kid!". I guess we will always have athletes to worship...............it may be awhile before AI runs them out of business.

Most everyone here on the forum are Photoshop enthusiasts and hobbyists! Those actually trying to make a living in the design and editing world, if not now, they will soon be viewing AI with a much different perspective.

Just so you know, I am not a "Sentient AI will take over the world and end humans altogether" type of guy. There is no doubt that AI is beneficial in many ways, but only in certain circumstances and in a controlled manner.

On a separate but similar subject, don't forget that AI can also be used maliciously!! One example is that this forums days are numbered due to the daily constant attack by AI driven spam! We have a defense in place but it's only a matter of time before the AI assisted spammers figure out a workaround! It will take AI to fight AI.

 

[Babine]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not trying to offend anyone! I just have very strong opinions about AI and how it's affecting our world. It's just an opinion and I'm very open to any and all discussions on the matter!


As it relates to AI and Ps, any 5 year old can be called a professional. So I would agree with you here with the exception that just calling someone a professional does not mean that they are. I would never refer to the average Joe who uses AI assisted Ps to accomplish edits as a professional. I think a better description would be "functionally inept". No skill or experience required, all one really needs is a hand/finger to operate a mouse and make a few clicks.


I again agree! As I've stated before, using AI assist in Ps is a means to an end but it requires no skill. Does it help with a workflow, it most certainly could!
So a person accomplishes an education in design and looks for work. Alas, with the exponential advances in AI, there is no longer a need for an educated designer, any minimum wage employee can use AI assisted software to accomplish anything the designer could faster and better. Faster and better than a writer. Faster and better than an artist. Faster and better than an engineer. Faster and better than a musician. Faster and better than................well, you pick a profession.

Where is a persons sense of accomplishment and self respect if absolutely no skill is needed to use AI? Where will human kinds sense of worth end up if AI renders all aspects of human achievement useless? Someone said it's the end result that matters...................no truer words have ever been spoken when it comes to the mindless use of AI.


Absolutely!!!! In those days we had talented artists who worked hard for their craft that we could admire and strive to emulate! What do we have now? "Gee, I hope I can click a mouse as good as that kid!". I guess we will always have athletes to worship...............it may be awhile before AI runs them out of business.

Most everyone here on the forum are Photoshop enthusiasts and hobbyists! Those actually trying to make a living in the design and editing world, if not now, they will soon be viewing AI with a much different perspective.

Just so you know, I am not a "Sentient AI will take over the world and end humans altogether" type of guy. There is no doubt that AI is beneficial in many ways, but only in certain circumstances and in a controlled manner.

On a separate but similar subject, don't forget that AI can also be used maliciously!! One example is that this forums days are numbered due to the daily constant attack by AI driven spam! We have a defense in place but it's only a matter of time before the AI assisted spammers figure out a workaround! It will take AI to fight AI.

Agreed Sam 'cause I'm from the 'old school' too.
I personally have chosen to think of things differently nowadays. For example, there was ample paint, brushes and canvas available to all during the 1400's. However, Leonado da Vinci, with his very special and very unique talents, used these common materials in a manner that no one else could.
Now there is painted graffiti using spray cans. And remember the gas engines that we all could change the spark plugs on?
Welcome to 2024 and on. :^(

 

[IamSam]

Now there is painted graffiti using spray cans.

I agree! However, even sprayed graffiti still requires some talent! But when they pull up in a mechanical device (as in drive) that has painting/spraying arms and push a button to let an AI paint the graffiti, then it would be closer to what we're experiencing with Photoshop.

And remember the gas engines that we all could change the spark plugs on?

Great point!!! I totally get what you're saying about old school! Now we are talking about a slightly different subject of car manufactures either producing better engines that don't require the maintenance like the old days, or they are purposefully engineering them to keep the average Joe out from under the hood......................only a qualified service center and "technician" can affect maintenance on your car...........job security and another way to part you from your money.

Not to mention, nothing is designed to last! It's bad for business! The Ortho Weed-B-Gon bar for instance! A waxy bar impregnated with chemicals that was dragged behind a lawn mower. It lasted forever and was so effective in controlling weeds in your lawn that the Ortho company (at the time) removed it from the market because all other lawn care products were not selling! I have a friend who still has a Weed-B-Gon bar passed down to him by his father! To this day he has never had to use any other product to control weeds in/on his lawn. I will try to get a photo of it next time I'm over at his house.

There is another Canadian company that makes a similar product called the WeedEx Dandelion bar that you drag over your lawn yourself with the attached rope. I'm not that familiar with it but it's similar to the Wee-B-Gon bar in that it lasts for a very long time and is highly effective.

 

[Babine]

I agree! However, even sprayed graffiti still requires some talent! But when they pull up in a mechanical device (as in drive) that has painting/spraying arms and push a button to let an AI paint the graffiti, then it would be closer to what we're experiencing with Photoshop.


Great point!!! I totally get what you're saying about old school! Now we are talking about a slightly different subject of car manufactures either producing better engines that don't require the maintenance like the old days, or they are purposefully engineering them to keep the average Joe out from under the hood......................only a qualified service center and "technician" can affect maintenance on your car...........job security and another way to part you from your money.

Not to mention, nothing is designed to last! It's bad for business! The Ortho Weed-B-Gon bar for instance! A waxy bar impregnated with chemicals that was dragged behind a lawn mower. It lasted forever and was so effective in controlling weeds in your lawn that the Ortho company (at the time) removed it from the market because all other lawn care products were not selling! I have a friend who still has a Weed-B-Gon bar passed down to him by his father! To this day he has never had to use any other product to control weeds in/on his lawn. I will try to get a photo of it next time I'm over at his house.

There is another Canadian company that makes a similar product called the WeedEx Dandelion bar that you drag over your lawn yourself with the attached rope. I'm not that familiar with it but it's similar to the Wee-B-Gon bar in that it lasts for a very long time and is highly effective.

View attachment 142729

I can recall pulling one of those bars over anything that was green around our house. Now that's going waaay back. :^)

 

[Rich54]

...any minimum wage employee can use AI assisted software to accomplish anything the designer could faster and better. Faster and better than a writer. Faster and better than an artist. Faster and better than an engineer. Faster and better than a musician. Faster and better than................well, you pick a profession.

I strongly agree with @IamSam on this question of AI, both in Photoshop and in general. If anything, I have a more dystopian outlook than he does. But I would take issue with the word "better" in the statement above. Aside from achieving a certain threshold of expediency, AI-generated design (or music, or whatever) is not "better" in any way. AI essentially vacuums-up massive amounts of data—words, images, sounds—and then finds patterns in that data to recombine it in recognizable ways. At its core, AI is simply regurgitating our own society back to us, with zero creativity added.

Back in the 1950s and early '60s, most LP album covers looked like the one on the left. The art design typically included a generic photo of the musician/singer and a list of song titles. It was simply "the way things are done". If AI had existed back then, I'm sure it could have cranked-out perfectly adequate album covers like these by the thousands. But never, not in a million years, would AI have conceived of the Beatles Sgt. Pepper cover in 1967. For those old enough to remember, this album art was stunning and revolutionary upon its release—a legitimately new thing.

I believe that AI will usher-in a new era of mediocrity. When quarterly profits and internet clicks are the only goals, creativity itself will be one of the first casualties. Why spend the money or take the time and risk of attempting something new, when we can just keep repackaging the old? All we need to do is press the AI button, the one labeled "Instant Culture".

 

[IamSam]

Rich, thanks for your take on AI!!!

But I would take issue with the word "better" in the statement above. Aside from achieving a certain threshold of expediency, AI-generated design (or music, or whatever) is not "better" in any way. AI essentially vacuums-up massive amounts of data—words, images, sounds—and then finds patterns in that data to recombine it in recognizable ways. At its core, AI is simply regurgitating our own society back to us, with zero creativity added.

I completely agree with you here but I must elaborate on my use of the term better. AI is essentially a compendium of human knowledge and experience. That's all it has to go on. AI is great at being objective and closing in on subjective. Better is relative. I myself can NOT write creatively. I simply lack the ability to be a good writer, I'm terrible at it! I miserably failed at compositional writing especially that which required a creative poetic undertone. Right now, any of the current AI's available to the public is "light years" better than I am when it comes to writing. And hundreds of times faster! AI is now and will become vastly better than most everyone! As we both agree, it is a human experience vacuum that has absolute total recall that 99.999% of humans do not or will never have! Relatively speaking, AI is better than the average professional in the same field.

As an artist, I still have doubts but AI can visualize some of the most stunning and creative art the world has ever seen! I'm not saying that I couldn't create such art works................it would just take me forever and I personally would be hard pressed to be as creative in depicting a visual concept as AI seems to be. Right now, AI is better at artwork than I am. I have the underlying artistic skills needed to push paint around a literal canvas with a Sable hair paintbrush, or push pixels around with a digital brush. The difference is that my skills are no longer required. Anyone can use Ps AI to create what I can do naturally. I'm a DEAD and EXTINCT breed! Those old album covers that seemed advanced and mind blowingly creative at the time, are nothing compared to what AI is capable of now.

It's been stated that AI is, at this current moment in time, the worst it's ever going to be. AI has the time advantage in that it's only going to improve at phenomenal speeds! You may not think it's better now................but that's misleading for the moment. AI may be repackaging the old, but it's doing so in ways that modern humans are not capable of! I have an engineer friend who has told me how they are using AI to solve problems that they are stuck on. Yes AI is just one big human information retrieval system, but it's using that knowledge in ways that humans have never thought about! It has no preconceived ideas or notions that contaminate the human mind. It thinks far beyond the confinement of the box. AI is constantly coming up with "new things" and I believe that, had it been around, it could have easily come up with the 67' cover of Sgt. Peppers lonely hearts club band and certainly done a better and more realistic compositing job!

Just to boot, I have another friend who has worked with two of the big gaming labels. She's currently working retail because she said her coding skills were not up to par with the AI that some are using now. I told her rather than retreat, jump on the bandwagon and do as the Romans are doing! She has yet to take my advice. Sad.

 

[Rich54]

It has no preconceived ideas or notions that contaminate the human mind.

I think AI could potentially be great in scientific or technical fields where answers are right or wrong, provable or disprovable. For example, designing new pharmaceuticals or aiding in the quest for nuclear fusion. The AI-generated solution either works or it doesn't. But in creative fields, it seems to me that if AI "has no preconceived ideas or notions that contaminate the human mind", then on what basis does it judge quality or success? Simply slamming together every possible permutation of human knowledge isn't the same thing as being creative. (Even if AI somehow came up with the Sgt Pepper cover in the absence of any precedent to draw upon (I doubt it), would it ever dare to add the sly little touch on the far-right: the doll wearing a shirt saying "Welcome, Rolling Stones"?)

If you asked AI to write two short stories on the theme of death, it could probably produce something that resembles literature. But if you asked AI to judge which of those two stories is better, what would it say? On what basis would it decide? If you asked AI to write ten minutes of stand-up comedy, could it ever know what's funny? If you asked AI to create a recipe for rice pudding, how would it know if it tastes better baked or stirred in a pot?

 

[ushere]

i was prompted into this by a long conversation with my wife - a well respected artist, who, in no short shift, took one look at what i had created using invokeai, and simply laughed. as she pointed out, ai can only manipulate what already exists, it might well create interesting visuals, but at base, it's not creating in the true sense of the word.
my playing with ai is just that, playing, i've seen works created by so termed professional 'ai artists', and the only takeaway i've felt is that they all 'look' artificial, contrived, and not just because of 6 fingers on a hand ;-) by comparison, oil paint on a canvas is hard to replicate - as my wife points out, when a computer can hold a paint brush, look out of the window, capture the 'feeling' of the view on a blank canvas, then she'll pay attention.
btw she's - https://www.hannakay.com/

interestingly - https://www.theguardian.com/technol...tition has,and should reflect societal change.

so exactly who gets the money, the so-called artist or the computer?

 

[IamSam]

But if you asked AI to judge which of those two stories is better, what would it say?

Judging a story is a human attribute and one not shared with an AI. The AI simply doesn't care. Any work that is reviewed by five humans could possibly bring five differing opinions! We humans are ourselves poor judges of good or bad. If one person asks an AI to write a story, the AI does the best it can based on it's knowledge base. If it's not good enough for the person, the AI will simply write it over an over until the person is satisfied. This still does not mean that the rest of humanity will think the writing is as good as the person who solicited the work from the AI. The stand up comedy would fall under the same category. Bottom line is, the AI does not care........for the moment anyway. The same holds true for the pudding. However, you need to consider the technological advances made in AI's ability to observe it's surrounding environment. It see's much better than humans possessing a variety of modes of vision that humans don't have. We know that there are sensors that can detect a multitude of elements in the air and on surfaces. How do we know it won't soon have the ability to taste? It knows that some like it stirred in a pot while others prefer it baked. Why wouldn't you assume that it could pose the question and base it's recipe on user preference? Remember, AI is at it's worst! It's only going to get even better.

Note: We really don't want the AI to care or to be able to judge! We certainly don't want it to be able to asses it's own self worth! I don't know if we can stop it at this point. Also note, I am NOT a fan of AI at ALL!!!!!!! I'm just not going to naively stand by and watch it evolve or make assumptions. AI is a threat...........or is it?

as my wife points out, when a computer can hold a paint brush, look out of the window, capture the 'feeling' of the view on a blank canvas, then she'll pay attention.

As I stated above, an AI IS capable of viewing an interpreting it's surroundings and environment. Why would we assume it's not capable of interpreting that view out the window in to a feeling on a blank canvas? Would it be the same as a humans interpretation? Yes! No matter if it's human or AI, some will like it while others don't! Judging is a human attribute.

so exactly who gets the money, the so-called artist or the computer?

Now there's a topic worth talking about! My opinion only.............the copyright and any earnings thereof goes to whomever created the AI. Just because someone describes art to the artist, does not give them copyright unless the artist contractually surrenders ownership! That's the way it's always been done in the commercial art world!

 

[IamSam]

Here's another avenue to be considered. Is Photoshop a tool? Is AI a tool?

Traditionally a tool would be described as any object used by a person in order to assist them in accomplishing a task. Let's take a wrench or spanner being used by a person to manually tighten or loosen a nut. But if that same person clicks a few menus which tasks a robotic arm to perform the same job, who is actually performing the task? Is the robotic arm a tool as well? Again it's interpretive and dependent on one's (Human) personal beliefs.

 

[ushere]

my goodness, what a can of worms... in your spanner example, the spanner, along with the arm and program behind it would, i think, remain 'tools', since there is no added input from the program?