Saving PDF in 100%

[PoBear90]

Hello

My name is Josue, I am a 24 year old freelance artist. Currently I am working for a company that keeps me busy. I have a good reputation for being quick and neat.

Allow me to thank anyone and everyone who looks at this threat and takes time to answer, thank you very much!

Recently we begun work on a coupon/advertising book. The printer asks of me to send the files over in PDF format and for everything to be 100% black.

I did some testing. First making a test image from scratch in Photoshop CS5, then converting my workspace to CYMK, then making sure I made the black in the color swatch, 100% black.
Everything in the image was black to begin with and only text. So I sent the image to the printer and they said it was 100% black.

The problem comes when I try several things. Bringing in a PDF file from another artist, that was supposed to already be in 100% black. Saving this file in a CMYK with 100% black selected in PDF, does not save it in 100% black for me.
Our printer says it is not 100% black.

So I tried to bring in a color image, change my working space to CMYK, use the color range to select black from the image, then brush over it with the 100% black color selected. We sent this file and another one where all I did was convert the working space to CMYK, then save it in PDF format. For these two files we are waiting response. But I am thinking they will not be in 100% black.

This all may seem confusing and strange, I am tried my best to explain the situation clearly.

If anyone knows what I can do, please reply. This is a big problem for us right now, that is causing my boss to lose money, and in turn my self .

Thank you for your time!!!

 

[ALB68]

Are you aware that a file that has a CMYK of C-0 M-0 Y-0 K100 is not 100% black? Pure black is C-75 M-68-Y-67 K-90? One thing that comes to mind to bring blacks to that point is to change the mode to RGB, then open the ACR filter and push the Blacks slider all the way to the left. Then convert it back to CMYK. You will see the black in the cmyk color palette will show those values. RGB will be 0-0-0

I guess a good question to your printer would be what formulation is he calling 100% black? Just set your values to what he tells you and you should be good. I assume your opening the PDF in Photoshop. There should not be a problem saving back to the PDF with the values you have set.

 

[Tom Mann]

Google {photoshop cmyk maximum black generation} and do what they say. That should fix the problem.

Tom M

 

[ALB68]

Google {photoshop cmyk maximum black generation} and do what they say. That should fix the problem.

Tom M

As you know Professor Mann..printers have their individual requirements. He should still ask .

 

[PoBear90]

Thank you for the response!

We have spoken over the phone. The printer advice me to use C-0 M-0-Y-0 K-100. They only check to see if the file is 100% black, not how it is done and they don't know how other artists have accomplished it.
I know there are different types of black, C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100 being what is called 100% black. The people over at the printer specified that they cannot use rich black, which is what they look for in a file. If it is
rich black they send it back. So a file per say, cannot have any amount of rich black, which I understand makes their machines shell out too much black ink and causes all sorts of problems. Also it has something to do
with the way it looks on the paper they have chosen.

ALB68. I understand people may use different terms for the same thing. I have to go by what the printer says tho and they call C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100 100% black. I have read some articles where they called that 100% black as well
and rich black the original black that Photoshop gives. They have also made reference to Illustrator using 100% black by default, which is C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100.

Thank you

 

[IamSam]

This is not a matter of different terms. The use of the term 100% K refers to the Key (Black) setting in CMYK. It does not even remotely suggest that the setting of C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100 will produce 100% black as it DOES NOT. It is a dark gray at best.

How it prints with this setting is what's important and if this is what the printer suggests, then this is what must be done.

 

[ALB68]

Thank you for the response!

We have spoken over the phone. The printer advice me to use C-0 M-0-Y-0 K-100. They only check to see if the file is 100% black, not how it is done and they don't know how other artists have accomplished it.
I know there are different types of black, C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100 being what is called 100% black. The people over at the printer specified that they cannot use rich black, which is what they look for in a file. If it is
rich black they send it back. So a file per say, cannot have any amount of rich black, which I understand makes their machines shell out too much black ink and causes all sorts of problems. Also it has something to do
with the way it looks on the paper they have chosen.

ALB68. I understand people may use different terms for the same thing. I have to go by what the printer says tho and they call C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100 100% black. I have read some articles where they called that 100% black as well
and rich black the original black that Photoshop gives. They have also made reference to Illustrator using 100% black by default, which is C-0 M-0 Y-0 K-100.

Thank you

Like I said..if the printer wants that then give it to him. But as IamSam just said and I will iterate ..0,0,0,100 does not result in 100% black. It is also true that Ai default black is 0,0,0,100. This has to do with their equipment and process, so give them what they ask for and then inspect the black that comes from them. If it suits you or who ever is buying
it then fine..otherwise it's on the printer.

 

[PoBear90]

I guess it boils down to, how can I save my work from Photoshop as PDF, making sure it is in 100% black? The time I tried making it from scratch it was good. So any image coming in, after being saved will need to become 100% black. I will try the tutorial from the link above and send it over tomorrow, we'll see what they say. I hope it works.

Again thanks everyone for your time.

 

[Tom Mann]

@ALB68 : Larry -

I am sorry to have to point this out to you, but in Post #7, you are continuing to make the same error about the meaning of the term, "100% black", that you made in Post #2, even after it was clearly pointed out to you by both the OP and by Sam.

As they told you, "100% black" is a commonly used, and accurately defined term in the printing industry. As Sam pointed out, it is NOT just a matter of different terminology. It is almost always defined as cmyk = (0,0,0,100), NOT the deepest black you can get out of a particular press, inkset, and settings, ie, as you would like this term to be used. The most commonly used term for what you mean is "rich black", so if your cmyk working space is FOGRA39 rich black is (91, 79, 62, 97). If your working space is FOGRA29 , rich black is (96, 70, 46, 86), etc. Fortunately, the OP has not been confused by this.

You also suggested, "...One thing that comes to mind to bring blacks to that point is to change the mode to RGB, then open the ACR filter and push the Blacks slider all the way to the left. Then convert it back to CMYK...". I'm sorry, but this is also just horrible advice. First of all, doing this will wreak havoc with the darkest tones in the image, turning them into featureless blobs of black, reminiscent of how the NY Daily News used to look on a bad day in the 1950's. If anything, some photographers and graphic artists will do the opposite, and make the darkest tone in the image something like RGB = (5,5,5) and the lightest tone be around RGB = (250, 250, 250) so that gradations in both the darkest and lightest tones will be able to be seen, even with non-perfect printing, non-perfect viewing conditions, etc.

The second problem with your advice to crush the blacks is that if someone actually does this, after conversion to CMYK using anything but a profile with "maximum black" generation settings, the result will still be exactly the same, ie, a rich black, not a 100% black, exactly the opposite of what the OP's printer asked for.

==================
@PoBear90 : Since you are in phone contact with the printer, and you appear to be in an area (Boston 'burbs) with many good offset printers, the easiest way to ensure that blacks are printed as (0,0,0,100) is to pick up the phone, call the printer, and ask if they can either (a) sent you the appropriate ICC profile for their presses, or (b) give you the name of a standard, maximum black generation cmyk profile that is available online. If they answer yes to either question, you are in luck because all you have to do is install that profile, and do an "edit / convert-to-profile" after you get the image looking good in whatever RGB space you like to work in. This is true whether it's your image, or an image supplied by someone else.

Let me warn you, when you call the printer, your call will often (almost always, LOL) be initially turned over to some well-meaning sales rep with limited technical knowledge. Don't believe his bluster. If this person doesn't know what a maximum black generation ICC profile is, or they give a brain dead answer like, CMYK, insist on speaking to a "pre-press person" or someone with more in-depth technical knowledge. If they don't / won't do this, my suggestion is to switch printers. You need someone who works quantitatively (ie, using ICC printing profiles), not qualitatively (ie, using terms like you've already been exposed to).

It it is beyond your authority to switch printers, and/or your boss insists on using this particular outfit, PLEASE read the articles I mentioned in post #4. These will allow you to put together an approximate maximum black generation ICC profile. It may be pretty far off in terms of white point, and mid-tone colors, but at least your files won't be rejected out of hand by this printer.

Tom M

PS - FYI, although there are other reasons for not using rich blacks, by far, the most common one is simply that using rich blacks costs more (because of use of all the color inks, not just black), and the difference between the two probably won't ever be noticed by people riding the MTA or other poor viewing conditions.

 

[ALB68]

@ALB68 : Larry -

I am sorry to have to point this out to you, but in Post #7, you are continuing to make the same error about the meaning of the term, "100% black", that you made in Post #2, even after it was clearly pointed out to you by both the OP and by Sam.

As they told you, "100% black" is a commonly used, and accurately defined term in the printing industry. As Sam pointed out, it is NOT just a matter of different terminology. It is almost always defined as cmyk = (0,0,0,100), NOT the deepest black you can get out of a particular press, inkset, and settings, ie, as you would like this term to be used. The most commonly used term for what you mean is "rich black", so if your cmyk working space is FOGRA39 rich black is (91, 79, 62, 97). If your working space is FOGRA29 , rich black is (96, 70, 46, 86), etc. Fortunately, the OP has not been confused by this.

You also suggested, "...One thing that comes to mind to bring blacks to that point is to change the mode to RGB, then open the ACR filter and push the Blacks slider all the way to the left. Then convert it back to CMYK...". I'm sorry, but this is also just horrible advice. First of all, doing this will wreak havoc with the darkest tones in the image, turning them into featureless blobs of black, reminiscent of how the NY Daily News used to look on a bad day in the 1950's. If anything, some photographers and graphic artists will do the opposite, and make the darkest tone in the image something like RGB = (5,5,5) and the lightest tone be around RGB = (250, 250, 250) so that gradations in both the darkest and lightest tones will be able to be seen, even with non-perfect printing, non-perfect viewing conditions, etc.

The second problem with your advice to crush the blacks is that if someone actually does this, after conversion to CMYK using anything but a profile with "maximum black" generation settings, the result will still be exactly the same, ie, a rich black, not a 100% black, exactly the opposite of what the OP's printer asked for.

==================
@PoBear90 : Since you are in phone contact with the printer, and you appear to be in an area (Boston 'burbs) with many good offset printers, the easiest way to ensure that blacks are printed as (0,0,0,100) is to pick up the phone, call the printer, and ask if they can either (a) sent you the appropriate ICC profile for their presses, or (b) give you the name of a standard, maximum black generation cmyk profile that is available online. If they answer yes to either question, you are in luck because all you have to do is install that profile, and do an "edit / convert-to-profile" after you get the image looking good in whatever RGB space you like to work in. This is true whether it's your image, or an image supplied by someone else.

Let me warn you, when you call the printer, your call will often (almost always, LOL) be initially turned over to some well-meaning sales rep with limited technical knowledge. Don't believe his bluster. If this person doesn't know what a maximum black generation ICC profile is, or they give a brain dead answer like, CMYK, insist on speaking to a "pre-press person" or someone with more in-depth technical knowledge. If they don't / won't do this, my suggestion is to switch printers. You need someone who works quantitatively (ie, using ICC printing profiles), not qualitatively (ie, using terms like you've already been exposed to).

It it is beyond your authority to switch printers, and/or your boss insists on using this particular outfit, PLEASE read the articles I mentioned in post #4. These will allow you to put together an approximate maximum black generation ICC profile. It may be pretty far off in terms of white point, and mid-tone colors, but at least your files won't be rejected out of hand by this printer.

Tom M
PS - FYI, although there are other reasons for not using rich blacks, by far, the most common one is simply that using rich blacks costs more (because of use of all the color inks, not just black), and the difference between the two probably won't ever be noticed by people riding the MTA or other poor viewing conditions.

Professor Mann, I most certainly intended to simply reinforce what IamSam said. Maybe I mis-stated it. However, the whole point that I was trying to make to the OP was that he was to ask his printer what his requirement is and provide him with same.

As to the horrible advice on using ACR , like I said, that comes to mind. It does work, as a matter of fact, I tested it before I made that statement. I apologize to the multitudes for making such a dumb, amateurish, uninformed, uneducated statement . The OP was discussing how to make the changes to get to black in the files he received from other artists. I believe I stated that that process would return 75,68,67,90 CMYK which is in fact rich black. My eyesight is beginning to fail me so I suppose I mis-read this post from http://www.bittbox.com/all/photoshop-101-true-black-cmyk

So, maybe I can seek your forgiveness for my stupidity and next time maybe I won't trigger such a rebuke and lengthy response. It is my hope that I have not confused our OP anymore than he was already. (Oh, that's right, you said I didn't! Whewwww..thank goodness.)
Have a nice day

 

[PoBear90]

Hi guys

Sorry for not replying quickly enough. I have been busy working on other projects. Thank goodness the other printers we work with do not require 100% black text.

In this test I made document from scratch in Photoshop CS5. Basically this is the way our printer said they check for 100% black or the presence of process black.
So if I tick the process black option off and there is still text in the image, the remaining is not 100% black and therefore it cannot be used. If the text is gone, the it means it was 100% black.

Anyway, I still haven't figure out how to make photoshop save my work (containing 100% black text) in PDF, without messing with it. Recently I tested another PDF file, the test worked. But I don't know what exactly
happened in Photoshop, that this PDF file was saved, and the 100% black was not affected. I went back to CS and saved another PDF file. The test failed.

Here is a snap of my color settings http://i.imgur.com/LkEXcll.png

Adobe PDF settings http://i.imgur.com/OzZEXD6.png