2 problems with Photoshop Camera Raw

[Azzeria]

Hello everyone :wave:

For a long time I have been editing my raw files with the software Canon provides (DPP). As CS6 was released my interest for Camera Raw took a new turn, and I've tried it. I am however experiencing 2 issues, which takes all the reasons for using it away for now.

Heavily increased noise by usage of Camera Raw
Any usage of Camera Raw seems to clutter my images with noise. Although I may not touch any editing process, as soon as the image is opened as a smart object, the noise is there.
This is incredibly annoying, as I am a photographer who appreciates clean, neat and clear photographs, and do everything in my power to not have any noise in my images.
The version I am using of Camera Raw is 7.0

Camera Raw displays raw files different than other programs
Alright, so what I mostly do is open my raw files in DPP, for the Auto Light Optimizer. Once adjusted after preference, I either overwrite the raw file, or save it as a new raw file. However, once I open that same raw file in Camera Raw, it looks completely different. Now I know that one has multiple options in the white balance (As shot and so on), I have tried them all, but no setting makes my photo appear like the original does.
I've also tried to open the same original raw file in DPP, and directly transfer it to photoshop, without any changes made. Opening the same raw file after, but through Camera Raw, and the results still differ just as much as if I adjust the Auto Light Optimizer settings.
While, in the example I am providing, the camera raw result does look better, it's beyond the point. I often take images in a certain way, and wish for them to stay that way, and only tweak some minor things in Camera Raw. Unfortunately this is not possible for me right now, and I feel rather frustrated over these 2 issues.

I feel I should also mention that I've noticed that there is a rather big size difference on the 2 files once open in photoshop. The TIF, transfered from DPP is nearly twice the size, compared to the smart object from Camera Raw. Wondering if this may mean that Camera Raw somehow compresses the raw file. Could that be a reason why I end up with so much noise?

To provide any information that might be needed, here it is:
Windows 7
Photoshop CS6
Camera Raw 7.0
DPP version: 3.11.1.0
Camera: Canon 600D
Lens: CANON EF 70-200MM F/2.8L USM
ISO of the photograph: 400

I would be forever thankful for some help to these issues, as I am very eager to start using Camera Raw.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[Steve]

Let me start with your screen shots.
It looks like ACR isn't opening the raw file with the proper color space setting.

Do you have the option in the 600D to select a color space?
If so which one are you using sRGB or Adobe RGB 1998?

Whatever the camera is set at make sure ACR is set to the same color space.
That setting is at the bottom of the screen in ACR.

ACR also applies a bit of sharpening to your images which may cause some noise that can be turned off.

Check those color settings and see what happens.
It'll be easier to figure this out one step at a time.

 

[Azzeria]

Yes, I do have the option to select a color space in the 600D. It was already set on sRGB. ACR however wasn't, so they are now on the same color profile. While it did make a slight change, the colors are still rather off.

I am aware that ACR applies some sharpening to your image, as well as default noise reduction. I have played with all of these settings, and although the noise gets a bit less if I remove the sharpening all together, it's still very noisy.

 

[Steve]

Can you post a raw file here, I'd like to look at it myself.
If you put it in a Rar or Zip file you can upload it.

The color doesn't bother me as much as the noise.
It's possible DPP applies noise reduction and a color boost automatically, I've shot raw and used ACR for years and I don't see how it adds noise.

Check for Auto setting in DPP and if you find any shut them off and see what happens.

 

[MikeMc]

Have you tried opening in raw, rather than the Canon program ?

Is your lens profile correct in RAW ?...IE canon lense ?

 

[Azzeria]

Sure thing, I included 2 raw files from the same session.
http://creationsonrequest.com/rawfiles.rar

Aye, I do know that DPP can apply some automatic things as far as sharpening goes. However what worries me is the fact that the examples I gave, are not opened through the same programs. One is opened through DPP, and transfered to PS as a TIF (The more colorful example), while the other is opened as a raw, through ACR.

I'll take another look for auto settings, but I believe I should have seen them already, as I've been searching a lot for the solution.

Many thanks for being so helpful! I appreciate it.

 

[Steve]

OK I have your raw files and I duplicated your results.
Being a photographer and not a graphics guy I found your question really interesting.

DPP automatically adds color enhancement, sharpening, and noise reduction, ACR does not.
See the images.





Even with no adjustments by you significant changes have been made so when you save as a TIF and import into Photoshop, those adjustments are saved in the TIF and of course you'll see the difference when you open the TIF in PS.

I saw your camera settings were ISO 400, f2.8 and 1/800 of a second.
I don't know how well the 600D does at higher ISO settings but a lower ISO will lower the noise in an image.
Also unless you specifically wanted a f2.8 depth of field, most lenses are sharpest in the middle apertures, (f5.6, f8, f11).
As for the shutter speed of 1/800, there's no need for a shutter speed that high with your subject posing and a focal length of 135mm.
Rule of thumb for minimum shutter speed is match the shutter speed to the focal length.

So general rule of thumb with a focal length of 135mm is 1/135th of a second, 1/800 is overkill and serves no purpose.

 

[Azzeria]

Firstly, I'm very appreciative that you took an interest in my question. Especially as this feels like a very important 'issue' for me.

While I am inclined to believe what you tell me, I am not sure that I do. Naturally I do understand that if DPP were to automatically apply various auto settings, that it'd be saved and hence transferred in the TIF to PS.
However, the reason I am saying I am not yet sure I believe this, is because the file that's transferred from DPP to PS have no visual changes, compared to the JPEG (The JPEG that gets created when the shot is taken).

I'll show you 3 screenshots below. The first is from the JPEG created at the shot, the 2nd the file I get from opening the raw in DPP, and transfer is as a TIF to PS, and as third, the raw file I open in ACR. Note, no editing or changes has been made to either file)


I find it very interesting, your hints about the camera settings. I am relatively new to photographing (about a year now) so I still have a lot to learn. However, I am wondering how it would be possible to shoot with a shutter that's synced to your focal length if one does not have an ND filter? I am often resulting to high shutters, in order to not overexpose certain parts of the image (In this one for example, he is wearing a white shirt, which easily gets overexposed). This example is a little extreme, as this shot was taken on a day where at one minute it was sunny and very strong light, and the next cloudy/shadow.
My other question is, if you would care to elaborate on why it's preferred to sync your shutter with your focal length? I tried googling a little bit about it, and I see that others have the same opinion, but I cannot find a definite answer as to what effect difference it is.
Also, as far as I have read, there shouldn't really be a difference in quality loss between ISO 200 & 400. Maybe a very slight difference, but the articles I've read about the matter says it's so little it should not matter/be visible.

 

[Azzeria]

This aside, looking more in depth about the differences between the raw opened in ACR and the JPEG, I can see a clear difference in sharpness. The JPEG is a lot more sharp than the ACR file, although I haven't even removed the default sharpening ACR does.It also seems as if the extra contrast I have set in the camera itself is not visible in ACR, nor the full sharpness I've set in the camera.
Including 2 screenshots of the sharpness as well. (First being the JPEG and 2nd ACR)

Wondering if possibly all of this is because somehow ACR can't seem to load any settings that's been made extra in the camera itself?

 

[MikeMc]

All jpeg files are altered , the RAW files are what the ccd got thru the lens....

" The JPEG is a lot more sharp than the ACR file "

When I import my dng files from my Canon or Pentax the clarity setting in raw is 0. I do not shoot in jpeg mode so I cannot compare. I shoot in RAW as old silver habits don't die and I sharpen in both RAW and Photoshop for my final images

 

[Steve]

I'll show you 3 screenshots below. The first is from the JPEG created at the shot, the 2nd the file I get from opening the raw in DPP, and transfer is as a TIF to PS, and as third, the raw file I open in ACR. Note, no editing or changes has been made to either file)

Read Mike's reply, JPG's are processed inside the camera.

Look at your camera's menu and find "Picture Styles"
Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Neutral, Faithful, Monochrome and some user defined setting where you can set sharpness, contrast, saturation, and color tone.

If you open a raw file in DPP it applies changes by default, I already showed you that.
If you open a JPG in Photoshop the camera already applied some degree of sharpness, contrast, saturation, and color tone along with noise reduction.
If you open a Raw file in ACR, no adjustments have been made and the image looks a little flat and under saturated, that's 100% normal.

You're examples confirm what I'm telling you.

I am wondering how it would be possible to shoot with a shutter that's synced to your focal length if one does not have an ND filter? I am often resulting to high shutters, in order to not overexpose certain parts of the image ........... ............... My other question is, if you would care to elaborate on why it's preferred to sync your shutter with your focal length?

I assume you're not using full automatic but Program (P) mode or Aperture priority mode (Av).
In either mode as you turn the main selection dial the shutter speed goes down the aperture goes up, or the reverse.
f2.8 @ 1/800 = f4 @ 1/400 = f5.6 @ 1/200 = f8 @ 1/100, it's all the same amount of light hitting the sensor, the same exposure.

As you turn the wheel you'll see both the aperture and shutter speed change in-sync to the numbers I showed above and many variation in between.
Turn the wheel until the shutter speed is (in this case 1/135 or slightly higher) it's all the same exposure.

Also, as far as I have read, there shouldn't really be a difference in quality loss between ISO 200 & 400. Maybe a very slight difference, but the articles I've read about the matter says it's so little it should not matter/be visible.

That's true, but at the time we didn't know why you showed noise in one image and not another.
Now we know DPP was adding noise reduction.

 

[MikeMc]

I assume you're not using full automatic but Program (P) mode or Aperture priority mode (Av).
In either mode as you turn the main selection dial the shutter speed goes down the aperture goes up, or the reverse.
f2.8 @ 1/800 = f4 @ 1/400 = f5.6 @ 1/200 = f8 @ 1/100, it's all the same amount of light hitting the sensor, the same exposure.

As you turn the wheel you'll see both the aperture and shutter speed change in-sync to the numbers I showed above and many variation in between.
Turn the wheel until the shutter speed is (in this case 1/135 or slightly higher) it's all the same exposure.

2 thoughts.... the shutter speed rule (time vs focal length) is used to prevent camera shake
The "sunny f16 " rule.....shutter speed and asa are equal and the lens is set to f16 on a bright day.

As a longtime photographer these are the basics for any exposure.